Virtual PC and Server 2008 R2 Rant | The Coffeehouse

figuerres
???

OK so this is just silly... i really really hope MSFT will get a new version of VPC out soon.

I am looking to do some development and learning on Server 2008 R2 but guess what?

it's x64 only..... so the only way i can do a Virtual Machine for it is to use VMWare

Get with it Microsoft, we need VPC 2010 with support for x64 guest systems!

contextfree

Speaking of VPC, I can't seem to get USB support working on my setup (W7 64 RC hosting XP 32 SP3, with the new Windows Virtual PC). Is 64/32 the problem? It doesn't actually complain about missing drivers or anything, it just doesn't work.

figuerres
???

In reply to contextfree

#Sep 25th @ 10:17 PM

might be that or it might be the vpc engine.

from what i know VPC 2007 is a 32 bit app with some kind of 64 bit wrapper for running it on an x64 OS.

when vpc 2007 was in ctp/beta they had a number of folks like me all asking a set of things be fixed and the offical line was "not in the plan".

I feel that when msft stopped selling vpc and made it free they made a mistake.

now it's a cost center for microsoft with no direct revenue.

that has the ugly side effect of making it hard to justify spending any money on it in the msft budget ( at least from the viewpoint of how most corp budgets work)

and we can not say: we will buy the next version if you do this.

all we have left is take it or leave it.

there is a thread in the microsft vpc fourums i found that had a whole bunch of posts about this and about vmware.

my "evil revenge plan" is to do a demo of Server 2008 R2 with balmer on hand, run it on a laptop and show VMware running server 2008 r2 and then ask balmer why virtual pc can't do that. watch him turn red ....

I bet within 6 months a new vpc version would support a 64 bit guest os.... if for no other reason than to catch up.

not that in general I dream of such evil...

but in this case I would be willing to roast any of the execs over this stupid blunder they have made.

in so long now they have left the vpc engine with the same old cpu emulation, the same mainboard, the same video emualtion

and the same base level support for USB and other IO.

they barely updated it for vista and running on a 64 bit host os.

xp mode for windows 7 is cool but again is not much of a core update, just a matter of surfacing the client window onto the host OS window manager. so i call that an added feature, IMHO that should have shipped with VISTA for crying out loud!

think of how that would have helped the xp-to-vista switch over.... it would have (IMHO) made vista much more popular and given a lot of folks more comfort in moving to vista.

now that most folks have switched to vista the xp mode is much less needed, now it's mostly for the big corp. networks that were holding out ... now they can move to 7 and still run xp apps.

they need to do a deep re-work of the vpc engine to allow developers to pick at least 2 or 3 profiles

the first would be the classic one we have today.

one would be x64 capable hardware with a pci-express video card that is not top of the line but decent.

say a core2 duo cpu and an nvidia gpu emulation, not full directx mode.... not dx9/10 anyway....

and better mapping of USB ports and such.

for example i have a need to support a Point of Sale USB printer, i would like to load the drivers into VPC and just attach the host USB port to the drivers in the vpc to allow my app to print to that printer.

and let me run the new server OS and applications from a VPC on my desktop or laptop running windows 7.

LeoDavidson

Don't know if it's of interest but, according to the Wikipedia page, VirtualBox can run 64-bit hosts (given suitable hardware). Running them on 32-bit OS is "experimental."

VirtualBox is free, including the "full" version (so long as you install the copy yourself, essentially; the full version costs money only if you automatically distribute it around several machines).

I haven't used VirtualBox myself, though. Have been using VMware for the last couple of years after switching from VirtualPC because I needed to run Vista x64 for testing (and due to a conflict with Virtual PC and the nForce ethernet drivers which meant my real machine wouldn't boot properly sometimes and which neither company wanted to own and fix/work-around). VMware's x64 stuff works great, including on a 32-bit host OS, though it's not free like the other products ofc. (There is a free VMware but I don't think it does x64. Might be wrong.)

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

In reply to LeoDavidson

#Sep 26th @ 4:43 AM

I use VirtualBox and I can confirm it gives VirtualPC (and by extension, VirtualServer) a total arse-kicking (well, VPC7, which is only available on Win7 has full support for DWM with its DX10-compliant emulated GPU, VirtualBox only goes up to DX9).

VirtualBox supports both x64 and x86 guests on x64 hosts (and I think it also does x64 guests on x86 hosts, don't quote me on that). It also gives you more control over things like networking.

One problem is the constant stream of updates, and updating VirtualBox can be a pain (since you update it by reinstalling, which re-isntalls your virtual networking adapters). I'd like to see a better update installer, but otherwise it's good.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to figuerres

#Sep 26th @ 4:20 AM

So why not email him about it? Seriously.

As an aside R2, and Win7 seem to be unexpected by IIS plugin folks - there's nothing on IIS.net that say which extensions will work and which won't, and they all just require IIS7, not 7.5.

figuerres
???

In reply to blowdart

#Sep 26th @ 5:55 AM

actually i am thinking very hard about emailing a select list of folks.... I have more than one person @ MSFT i can email when i am ready to. but I do not have any really really good inside track on getting to Steve.... but one or two names i have just might get to him ....

<add> Evil laugh, and hand rubbing

Smiley

figuerres
???

In reply to LeoDavidson

#Sep 26th @ 4:43 AM

the "free" thing is what they call "PLayer" that does not create a VM.

and yes I looked at / may try vbox .... my desktop is running Vista x64 and has the ram to run some decent vm's to test with.

later today I am going to check some stuff out and plug in two more SATA drives.... so I can put some of the Disk I/O off the main Boot and swap drive just to make it as smooth as i can.

my 30 day trial of VMWare just started and so far it seems like a keeper though.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to figuerres

#Sep 26th @ 7:25 AM

steveb@ - that's all you need. Sure it'll go through an admin person, but he's said before any emails about products he always reads.

LeoDavidson

In reply to figuerres

#Sep 26th @ 7:30 AM

Yeah the free VMware isn't much cop, except for very limited scenarios. The commercial VMware, or VirtualBox (which is free is almost all circumstances), seem to be where it's at.

PerfectPhase
"This is not war, this is pest control!" - Dalek to Cyberman

In reply to LeoDavidson

#Sep 26th @ 1:35 PM

If I remember correctly, player can't create new VM images, so create a couple of base images to cover your needs in your trial of Workstation and then make a copy and install and OS into them as needed. It's quite easy to copy and paste new drives in the .vmx file.

I do like VMware Workstation and have used it for years, but it does look like Windows Virtual PC could finally be making back some ground but the lack of x64 is stupid.

BTW figuerres, if your on Windows 7 you could use boot from VHD for Server 2008 R2

LeoDavidson

In reply to PerfectPhase

#Sep 27th @ 3:49 AM

That's right, VMware Player can boot VMs but can't create/configure them. I just checked the Player FAQ and it says it can boot 64-bit VMs, too, so I expect it'll work with Server 2008 R2 as the guest (but I haven't tried it).

The thing I'd miss most about Player vs Workstation is that Player (like Virtual PC) cannot do snapshots.

(To clarify: Snapshots let you save VM's memory and disk state and recall it later. Like hibernation on laptops, but you can go back and forth between multiple snapshots. Ideal for testing installers/uninstallers, against different versions of things (e.g. one snapshot might have Office 2003 while another has 2007), or software you fear might break the machine but want to test/analyse before clicking a button to return to a clean instance.)

After getting used to snapshots I could never go back to VM software without them. They are super useful.

OTOH, you don't need snapshots if you just want a VM for compatibility. So Windows 7's XP mode is fine being based on Virtual PC. I guess you could use (incremental) backup tools to get something almost as good as snapshots, too.

figuerres
???

In reply to PerfectPhase

#Sep 27th @ 3:49 AM

right now i am still on vista. i will be on w7 by the release date.... i have a desktop that i have the pre-order upgrade for. and i am looking at a new laptop right now and just shopping on models and options before i make a buy.

as for boot from a vhd - that is ok but not going to work for a dual box demo......

for example right now i am working on trying to create a tamplate for a web site to try and handle 3 cases:

a) client browser has silverlight - give them pages that use it.

b) no silverlight - client has flash - do the right thing

c) no flash or silverlight drop down to just html and css stuff.

so i need to run a server, and 3 or more clients at the same time..... i can run vm's with xp and ie6 and the server and then on the main desktop i can test safari and ie 8 then i use an iPod Touch for the iPod / iPhone cases

i can also load other browsers on the desktop and the vm of xp.

when i get the new laptop this will be a bit less complex to do but i still want to vm so i can test xp / vista / win7 and more than just ie browsers.

Have to order the laptop soon as i have a seat on Oct 21 at the tampa MSFT office for a "Load fest" event to load 7 on the laptop.

it looks like HP needs about 12 days to build and ship the one i want.... if i order the custom build i am looking at.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to figuerres

#Sep 27th @ 8:34 AM

Well you don't have to run a server OS for that, you have IIS7.5 in Win7, just like you have IIS7 in Vista.

Configure the VMs to use physical networking rather than NAT/Shared and you'll see the IIS on the host machine.

JPeless

I use VirtualBox and it let's me do a 64-bit guest OS on a 32-bit host so I use that for my Windows Server 2008 64-bit install. Plus it can use VHD format virtual disks so it is somewhat interchangeable with Virtual PC (just remove/install the correct extensions if you switch which virtualization engine you use).