Bloggers have dinner with Jim Allchin and get preview of Longhorn | The Coffeehouse

The Channel 9 Team
5 guys from Redmond

So, last week Frank Shaw, VP at Waggener Edstrom asked me to setup a dinner with Jim Allchin. Rules? Had to be less than 10 people. Had to be bloggers who live in the San Francisco Bay Area.

So, the dinner happened last night and Thomas Hawk has a full report on the dinner. Also, Evan Williams (the guy who started Blogger that later got sold to Google) reported on the dinner.

Lots of little tidbits are in Thomas' report, including some news about Media Center.

Yet another reason to start a blog and put your freaking email address on it! (It was amazing how many people I couldn't invite because I couldn't figure out how to get ahold of them).

scobleizer
I'm the video guy

Sorry, I should have posted that. Didn't notice I was still logged in as the Channel 9 team.

By the way, I just found out we'll be interviewing Jim Allchin too (probably later this month).

Got any questions you'd like to hear me ask? Especially based on the topics discussed at the blogger dinner last night?

Stitch 2.0
I can feel my brain cells commiting hara-kiri.

Yeah, I would love to hear more about the search technology used in Longhorn. As well as the response-speed of the OS. According to Thomas it's supposed to be one of the biggest steps in efficiency improvement over the past 20 years

PocketXP
More Cowbell

Yes, why use the name Aero Glass?

IMO, it's an obvious spin or rather response to Sun's Looking Glass.

scobleizer
I'm the video guy

I heard the name Aero Glass before I heard about Sun's Looking Glass.

Why do we call it glass? You'll see. It's obvious when you see our UI. Totally not obvious when you see Sun's.

dotnetjunkie

When are we going to see it?
Do you have a video coming up, Robert?

Bogusrabin

scobleizer wrote:
Why do we call it glass? You'll see. It's obvious when you see our UI. Totally not obvious when you see Sun's.

Hmm, I don't see anything special in Looking Glass.

Can someone explain _why_ LG is supposed to be so big thing? I mean in GUI standpoint. Do you think it's UNIX/UNIX-like systems answer to Longhorn's Aero?

Rumours tells that Glass Theme is somekind of true transparent window decorations etc. with some blur/glass/and other efects. Doesn't sound any special so I don't think it's true.

And yes, can't wait the video.

ZippyV
Fired Up

Questions for Jim:

Will there be changes to Notepad, Paint or Wordpad?
Will we finally be able to create Windows themes?
Is the sidebar still alive?
What kind of 3th party applications would you like to include with Windows (not tools like zip support or cd burning stuff, but something like educational software) ?

Rossj

scobleizer wrote:
Got any questions you'd like to hear me ask? Especially based on the topics discussed at the blogger dinner last night?

1. Does Mr A regret publically claiming in 2001 that all buffer overruns in XP had been removed. might that sort of grandiose statement add to the level of grief that comes from the Slashdot crowd?

2. Is the claim about WinFS being delayed because 'users' wanted the server equivalent actually true? I've not seen anything in the blogosphere about it, or more specifically about people asking for it on the server. Or, is this a case of a single influential customer having more leverage than everyone else?

3. Given that OSX is not the 'minor' update that Microsoft marketing seems to be claiming it is, how much does it worry you that Tiger will be stealing all of Longhorn's thunder given that it already includes (and in some cases has for years) functionality that you won't be delivering for at least another year? Obviously Apple's market share is not very large, but it is hard to claim Longhorn as revolutionary, if it isn't.

Sorry if these sound a little strong, but the responsibility for the flaws that I and others perceive in Microsoft lie at the feet of the Senior Management, and I am sure he has had worse questions before now Smiley

scobleizer
I'm the video guy

The WinFS claim is absolutely correct. I heard it from many customers at the PDC. In fact, when I heard that were were planning on making this a client only thing I thought it was pretty lame too.

As to Apple. Apple has been kicking Microsoft's behind in the technology department for decades. I used to be an Apple advocate. Remember 1989? I do. Compare a Macintosh II to Windows 2 and it isn't even close. Today the two systems are MUCH closer than they were back then.

How did Apple end up with less than 4% market share when they had such an advantage?

No you understand why I wanted to work at Microsoft rather than work at Apple (which would have been more convenient, given I grew up about a mile from Apple).

When Apple has a Media Center and a Tablet PC and a sewing machine that has OSX embedded and has a decent IM client a decent game console a decent blog client a decent Office suite, etc, then I'll worry.

By the way, have you watched the Tablet PC Experience Pack and the Avalon videos yet? Apple's advantages are actually pretty minor.

Rossj

scobleizer wrote:
When Apple has a Media Center and a Tablet PC and a sewing machine that has OSX embedded

Sewing machine. Yeah - that is critical to Apple's success, can't believe they haven't already done it. You seem to forget that you don't make the hardware for the MC or the tablet, Apple are a hardware company - when they decide there is a market for it then maybe they'll jump.

Funny how Microsoft are the *only* OS provider for the tablet marketspace, a wise man once told me - if you have the market to yourself, it isn't a market.

I actually do want a Tablet PC, I just can't afford it, I am hoping my new employer will give me one.

scobleizer wrote:
and has a decent IM client a decent game console a decent blog client a decent Office suite, etc, then I'll worry.

I actually quite like iChat, sure it doesn't have all the kiddie accessories like nudges and winks - but it works and I get to do pretty funky video conferencing.

Do you really think Apple would be stupid enough to try and get between Sony and Nintendo - look how much it cost you guys to buy your market share Tongue Out

Don't get me wrong I do like my XBox, I just prefer my PS2.

Are you claiming Office on OSX is not decent? Oh you mean an Apple produced one? Didn't Apple hire the Gobe guys? *That* should worry you, although I'd question what is taking to long Smiley

As for the blogging client. not sure I can see how that will help Apple sell more hardware - which is of course their goal.

scobleizer wrote:
By the way, have you watched the Tablet PC Experience Pack and the Avalon videos yet? Apple's advantages are actually pretty minor.

I have watched them both. Tablet is nice, I want one, but I can't *really* afford one. As for Avalon, it looks very nice. Two words. Usability. Taligent. Tongue Out

If Microsoft really isn't scared of Apple, why all the effort to diffuse the Tiger release and to belittle Apple at every possible opportunity (not you personally, I mean Microsoft).

Now look what you've done, you've put me into Mac-zealot mode (you have to sign a form when you buy a mac nowadays). I don't want to come across as confrontational, but there are more important things Microsoft need to be doing than trying to get into *every* market, and adding eye candy on top of a old desktop api (because at the end of the day it is using Win32 n'est pas?).

Bogusrabin

scobleizer wrote:
... and the Avalon videos yet? Apple's advantages are actually pretty minor.

I didn't see anything special in that video. True transparent, wobling windows while playing movie, zooming, vectors, etc. already seen in Linux desktops demos. So what is so amazing in Avalon?
Did I miss something?

scobleizer
I'm the video guy

>If Microsoft really isn't scared of Apple, why all the effort to diffuse the Tiger release and to belittle Apple at every possible opportunity (not you personally, I mean Microsoft).

Ever consider that we're jealous? Apple's stock has gone up from 12 to 90 since I've been a Microsoft employee, while ours hasn't moved at all.

That's a long way from fear, though.

scobleizer
I'm the video guy

>Did I miss something?

Programmer productivity, that's what.

Again, you can do transparent windows in Windows today without Avalon. But at a GREAT development cost. Same on Linux.

Bogusrabin

scobleizer wrote:

Again, you can do transparent windows in Windows today without Avalon. But at a GREAT development cost. Same on Linux.

Yeah, two lines of Python/whatever.

Oh, well. I _am_ very interested Avalon. And of course in Longhorn too.

It's sometimes just too ... irritating listen marketing stuff (sometimes it's too "american" to me).

By the way. Is XAML/Avalon meant to web-developing too?

PocketXP
More Cowbell

Cool, I am looking forward to the demo.

BTW, the Looking Glass name was first used at Sun's first public demo on June 17, 2003.
fyi: http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.xml

I am probably wrong but I believe the first public announcement of Aero Glass was this week by Jim Allchin on April 14, 2005.

scobleizer
I'm the video guy

Aero Glass was used at the PDC in 2003 and had been used internally before that.

Charles
Welcome Change

Bogusrabin wrote:

scobleizer wrote:
Again, you can do transparent windows in Windows today without Avalon. But at a GREAT development cost. Same on Linux.

Yeah, two lines of Python/whatever.

Oh, well. I _am_ very interested Avalon. And of course in Longhorn too.

It's sometimes just too ... irritating listen marketing stuff (sometimes it's too "american" to me).

By the way. Is XAML/Avalon meant to web-developing too?

Don't worry. We will go deep into Avalon technologies. Stay tuned for a brief introduction of the core architecure of Avalon with Chris Anderson at the witeboard.

The Going Deep series is still in the Windows kernel (got the Object Manager and Memory Manager dev owners on slate for interviews in May). In time, we'll wind ourselves up the stack into user mode land. Rest assured.

Next week you will meet Molly Brown, dev owner of the NT Cache Manager and Nar Ganapathy, IO Manager Architect. Great struff.

C

PocketXP
More Cowbell

>> Aero Glass was used at the PDC in 2003

Cool, so it looks like they've been evolving together.

I am looking forward to the Aero Glass vs. Looking Glass smackdown debates.

If possible, please try to get Jim Allchin to host a 'crossfire' debate with some folks from Sun.

IMO, it would be exciting to see either on Channel 9 or at PDC.

Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

PocketXP wrote:
I am looking forward to the Aero Glass vs. Looking Glass smackdown debates.

I'm not quite sure what debates you expect to see. Aero Glass and Looking Glass have nothing in common, apart from the word Glass in both names. Aero is essentially the glassy blurred look that has been featured in Longhorn, whereas Looking Glass is a 3D desktop environment that allows you to position windows with depth.

PocketXP
More Cowbell

Thanks for the info.

Yes, I was assuming that both were 3D desktop environments.

I am sure that most disagree but I'll be disappointed if longhorn does not have a 3D desktop environment like Looking Glass.

Yes, 3D is bad for the average user but I believe necessary to satisfy the high tech power users.

androidi

Beer28 wrote:

The window borders are transparent, like glass, in looking glass. The windows themselves are transparent when not in focus.

Looking glass lets you create free standing desktop applications with depth and shapes and bitmapped meshes, and that is something longhorn doesn't do. Windows makes you put your nice shapely 3d app in an ugly square box.

Instead of dragging the app, you have to drag the square window container, which is always at the same 90 degree angle.

Edit: I am not actually 100% sure what you meant with that, so I withdraw my comment. Anyway the meat of the comment was that all the visual fancy and UI stuff wouldn't be that big deal unless used with other "LH pillars".

androidi

Guess this goes to demonstrate my point. Channel 9 may look fancy but the browser client-server interaction is lacking. Even though I had the comment there just for a minute and withdrew it, you still managed to reply to the first version of my comment (almost 20 minutes later!). If this site was made with smart client/indigo, you would have possibly seen my edits to the message coming in while writing your reply Wink

I only say possibly, as it could be the developer was still short on time and dropped that feature Smiley

androidi

I would so love if we had a device that would replace the mouse with your own eyes. I have seen some documentaries where they used special headset to track what point in the screen eyes are looking at - to see whether a child is looking at the mouth or eyes of people in a video recording or what things people look at in social situations at bars. Some small muscle movements or smth could be used to imitate buttons pressed..

The tech is here almost.. That'd certainly give some food for thought regarding UIs. A possibility being that you'd move the "camera" to the desktop with your eyes also by looking at off screen space...

AndyC

Beer28 wrote:
They say how easy longhorn UI is, but as you can see in my screenshot, that whole CD rotator application they show in all the LG demo's is only a file.

You've missed the point. The beauty of Avalon is precisely the fact that it isn't one file.

The UI designer works with the XAML to define how something looks. The programmers work with the code-behind files to identify what it does.

Take the listbox example. I can write code that uses a listbox to make selections. Exactly how this ends up looking in the UI doesn't matter to me, it might be a simple list, it might be some flashy 3D thing or it might be a map of the United States with each element a graphical representation of the state. It doesn't matter - behaviour and appearance are separated.

You might only need one page of Java to do the same, but if you have to be involved every time a graphic designer wants to make a little visual tweak then you are goign to be less productive.