Conversation Locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.
Posted By: Shining Arcanine | Apr 7th, 2004 @ 10:49 AM
page 2 of 7
Comments: 158 | Views: 162970
I'd really like to hear one of the MS guys put out an opinion on this - after all, we could go anywhere to argue this stuff, but Channel 9 is for us to interface with MS people, not hear ourselves talk. I know you guys must be busy, but you opened this can of worms. And this topic is something that's important to a whole lot of people. We're not just asking about a bug or a specific feature or something - we're asking about Microsoft's policy regarding the future of its product, Internet Explorer.

Also, I apologize for not understanding mykoleary's point earlier. Arcanine, I don't think he needs futher proof of CSS's power.
Knute
Knute
Behave, or else...
Shining Arcanine wrote:




A website is not a product and my website is visited by at least fifteen hundred people a day, I'd say those fifteen hundred people feel right about my website.


What's the URL to your site???
vazz
vazz
Vazz
mykoleary wrote:
Cranky web devs are only a VERY small piece of the market.  For every one, there's thousands of Aunt Joan's and Uncle Bob's.  Do you think THEY really give a rat about standards compliance?? 

NO! 

They care about the Internet being secure so they can use their credit card to buy little Jimmy a baseball glove without fear of having their card number or identity stolen. 

They don't want to go to a site with malicious Javascript that plops in tracking cookies.

They want to feel safe, and if they don't then eCommerce will never survive. 

eCommerce brings everyone money.

Snappy designs, Flash thingamodoos, and CSS based layout just bring a bunch of nice looking sites and whiny devs complaining about how much work it took to build their site.



If I remember right IE 6.0 was released in August 2001. It has been a long time since. Microsoft has had enough time to fix the security issues and add support for the new standards. If only they were commited to IE after the browser wars.
Thanks for posting that link to the CSSZenGarden.  Hopefully that will open some eyes around here. 

Some of the arguments against standards support are amusing.  So 'Ma and Pa' don't care about well crafted CSS designs?  News Flash:  Ma and Pa also don't care about ASP.NET.  But they do care about their user experience.  And it's generally true that a well crafted CSS based site is going to provide a better user experience than a poorly coded (ie, non-standards compliant) website.

Ma and Pa are also getting up there in age, and their vision may be failing.  Proper CSS design should allow them to adjust the type size on a page without having an adverse affect on the page design.  This is another area where IE is a pain.

I'll use the A-word here.  Accessibility.  It's another reason why standards are important.  Microsoft pays lip service to accessibility, but their lack of support for standards in IE seems to indicate that they've really made no committment to this issue.

I propose we rename this thread from "Does Microsoft Care About Webmasters" to "Does Microsoft Care About Web Standards".

As I pointed out in another thread the Microsoft.com site doesn't even decalre a doctype.  The underlying HTML is horrendous.  Yes, I know, no one cares about the code.  Apparently Microsoft doesn't either.


Charles
Charles
Welcome Change
This discussion is great. I am personally disappointed that nobody from the IE team has joined in the conversation yet. That's gonna change. Real soon. Your concerns will not go unheard.

Keep on posting,

Charles
Naveen
Naveen
we all start somewhere...
Microsoft are surely still commited to IE, and there certainly werent any browser wars, per se. There's only so much focus the developers can get from the company I think, and their main objective recently has been security - to get people trusting the products since that trust seemed in jeopardy perhaps .... now the focus has perhaps moved too tightly (though strategically) to security and the browser 'evolution'* is slowed as a result (There may actually be a wider lesson in that).

It can't actually be all that hard to program a browser to be secure in terms of the nuts and bolts, things like AMD's new stop executing code instruction (at the x86 level, close to the metal) will help no doubt, but basic programmatical rules (about memory heaps and so on) can't have changed all that much even if development tools have. Security would involve compiler design issues, development environment issues, and code design issues. I think that Internet Explorer ought still to be supporting the evolution of the internet with support for standards including CSS... and working support at that.

When so many people use a browser, one can't just stop developing it whilst disaffecting many of the developers who are encouraging people to use that program, with mistakes like broken CSS support.

It might be interesting to note that if a netscape model of sharing the development with volunteers was taken up, people would i think happily fix the browser so others could use it and develop for it with less trouble.

Work-arounds such as having to serve a different version of a particular site to different browsers have been around a long time now and I dont think developers will be getting any fonder of them, as at the end of the day making them is not a good use of time.

I also want to make a general point about security with regard to the internet. It seems to me that the problem of encryption has basically been cracked, with the use of highly encrypted deployments of the HTTPS protocol, and certification of sites. That means as of now well implemented e-commerce solutions, perhaps using 2 PCs to physically seperate sensitive data from publicly accessible systems, are as trustworthy as the people at the company which utilises such an ordering system.

The problems that can lead to people trying to exploit security holes in software are the self same problems, i think, that cause difficulties of social exclusion and lack of understanding of and empathy for people. Sites like this certainly help since through this medium it's clear that everyone is applying themselves and there's really no need to be malicious towards others. In this context browser security might be seen as in fact a transient problem, while the internet presents a great opportunity (thoroughly utilised, so far) to increase understanding between people(s).

For example, before watching a video on this website I might have absent-mindedly underlined that word, while now i'm sure that wouldn't be as easy to absorb that way. The medium remains quite extraordinary!

Just bear in mind that the developers are making the medium.

*I always find it hard to talk of evolution of something that when it comes down to it is a very functional tool. Many people probably have but the word is simply incorrect and misleading in the context of software applications, in my opinion, as those are actually developed by brainpower rather then, say, heredity. I meant it's not keeping up with the changing uses of comparable tools.


Naveen

mvuijlst
mvuijlst
Michel Vuijlsteke
Charles
This discussion is great. I am personally disappointed that nobody from the IE team has joined in the conversation yet. That's gonna change. Real soon. Your concerns will not go unheard.

You've got to be kidding. It's just not believable that the guys over at IE don't know about this.
Thanks, Charles. I'm really eager to be able to talk to the IE guys directly. There's a lot I'd like to talk to them about.

Previous poster (I can't remember your handle offhand) - it IS possible they don't know. When you're working on one thing (security?) and nothing else for a while, you shut out anything else.  Who knows how long they've been "under the hood" and oblivious to everything. Now, I know Tantek Celik knows this stuff, but his product has been canceled outright (not that that matters as much since IE isn't bundled with OSX anymore).
Considering Mozilla dragged their feet for how many years to get their browser operating at a decent speed, and capable of interpreting HTML without requiring the pinpoint accuracy of a high school English grammar teacher, I don't see why you are complaining about MS not having support for standards that are either a) barely a year old or b) essentially useless to the consumer market.

It's not like Microsoft needs to post daily builds of their next version of IE on the web site, and your Grandma will download it with the eagerness of a trekkie at some convention, who just won a free pair of plastic Spock ears.

I'm sure web "masters" everywhere are tapping their feet waiting for the day that IE can render out an SVG pie-chart of the WWW browser market share breakdown without requiring an Adobe download.
Charles
Charles
Welcome Change

This is not an issue that the IE team, and Microsoft in general, do not take very seriously. I can't speak for IE, so I won't. You will hear from someone on the IE team, soon on this and other important topics. I am making sure of this.


Keep on posting,

Charles

mvuijlst wrote:
Charles
This discussion is great. I am personally disappointed that nobody from the IE team has joined in the conversation yet. That's gonna change. Real soon. Your concerns will not go unheard.

You've got to be kidding. It's just not believable that the guys over at IE don't know about this.


I've got to aggree with Charles.  Regardless of how pressed for time you are and how much you are working on security, you *can't* go for 3 years and not notice that IE messes websites up.  Have they been living under a rock? 

Google for "ie lack standards compliance" or something similar.  There are thousands of articles, rants, raves and discussions on how bad IE is at compliance.  If they seriously don't know that IE is piss-poor at standards compliance, they need to check their pulse.

Heck, people have resorted to cheap hacks (http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/04/03/12/0454228.shtml ) to make IE compliant.

Funnily enough, it takes a discussion forum like this and 3 angry threads about the subject to get some notice.  Why did the 300 angry articles on the internet never get noticed?
excaliber wrote:

Funnily enough, it takes a discussion forum like this and 3 angry threads about the subject to get some notice.  Why did the 300 angry articles on the internet never get noticed?


Maybe those 300 articles were using CSS that IE didn't like? Smiley
> Considering Mozilla dragged their feet for how many years to get their
> browser operating at a decent speed, . . .

You may not have noticed, but Mozilla has neither the market share, nor the financial resources of Microsoft.  The fact that they've produced a browser that runs laps around IE in terms of standards support is phenomenal -- no matter how long it took to produce.

Forget support for CSS 3 (well, don't forget it, let's just defer that argument for another day). What about support for CSS 2.1 (yes, that's 2.1, the standard that was actually scaled back to reflect real-world implementation)? 

I have to say that I'm amazed by the mocking tone of some those defending IE's lameness on standards.  Obviously this issue hits some sort of nerve.




vazz
vazz
Vazz
alttags wrote:
>
I have to say that I'm amazed by the mocking tone of some those defending IE's lameness on standards.  Obviously this issue hits some sort of nerve.


I think they never developed a web application targeting multiple browsers. Cant blame them.
vazz
vazz
Vazz
synja wrote:
essentially useless to the consumer market.


Standards essentially useless to the consumer market? Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. Do you know what the internet would be with out standards? 
harumscarum
harumscarum
out of memory
The fact that the original post was complaining about CSS3 was a bit humorous. Just because the w3c releases somehing doesnt mean all browsers will be compatiable the next day. Users do not care about standards they just want their content. A gif at the bottom of your web page does not make it great.

I do agree though with the complete lack of  focus with standards . I dont expect things to be up to date as to DateTime.Today.ToShortDateString but it would be nice if ie  followed the w3c instead of ms.
Just to get this out of the way:

Stop saying "users don't care about standards". Yes, they may not know what's going on, but that dosen't mean they don't care whether the sites they visit are faster, easier to use, prettier, etc. Standards compliance has nothing to do with a GIF on the bottom of the page.

If you don't care about the users, think of it this way: a standards-compliant page is more likely to be ranked highly by search engines. All my sites are Google PR6. That has a lot to do with the fact that Google can read my XHTML.
vazz wrote:
synja wrote:essentially useless to the consumer market.
Standards essentially useless to the consumer market? Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. Do you know what the internet would be with out standards? 


That's easy.  It would all be a proprietary Microsoft file formats. 

Anyone remember Marvel and Blackbird?  That's what the web would be now if standards hadn't prevailed.

Charles
Charles
Welcome Change
Please read the recent post by DMassy

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=341

The IE team is listening. Keep talking, my friends.
page 2 of 7
Comments: 158 | Views: 162970
Microsoft Communities