ASP.NET Dinosaur | Tech Off

desiny

I have taken the time over the holiday season to learn about the new technologies such as ATLAS/AJAX and Silverlight.

I have come to realise that my VB6 / Classic ASP derived c# asp.net leaves a lot to be desired - I feel like an asp.net dinosaur!!!

Can someone please put me out of my misery and point me in the direct of some modern good practise articles and/or books. I essentially wish to use my knowledge of desktop .net to learn how to structure websites and functions so as to make debugging and future maintenance more simple.

Regards, Gavin.

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

desiny wrote:

I essentially wish to use my knowledge of desktop .net to learn how to structure websites and functions so as to make debugging and future maintenance more simple.

*Bzzt!* Fail.

Desktop and ASP.NET are toally different paradigms. Please, for the love of Scott Guthrie don't mix the two together.

So-called "server-side events" already muddy the waters (and I'm going to punch the inventor of <asp:button> in the face). Just treat the two as separate systems entirely and focus on keeping things simple.

I don't actually use ASP.NET AJAX because it's too "heavy". When I code by hand I can get the same effect in less than a kilobyte of client scripting, as opposed to the 20-odd KB libraries ASP.NET AJAX sends down.

Anyway, if you're finding ASP.NET to be antiquated because it's "derived" from ASP3.0 then maybe you're not doing it right. You are using inherited page classes and controls appropriately, right? And not just doing ASP3.0-style development with ASP.NET?

littleguru
allein, allein,... allein, allein!

This might help you: http://samples.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/aspplus/

figuerres
???

W3bbo wrote:

desiny wrote: I essentially wish to use my knowledge of desktop .net to learn how to structure websites and functions so as to make debugging and future maintenance more simple.

*Bzzt!* Fail.

Desktop and ASP.NET are toally different paradigms. Please, for the love of Scott Guthrie don't mix the two together.

So-called "server-side events" already muddy the waters (and I'm going to punch the inventor of <asp:button> in the face). Just treat the two as separate systems entirely and focus on keeping things simple.

true, and that bit about Scott Gu is great... Big Smile

stevo_
Casablanca != Manchester

To be fair, w3bbo has a point but here's how I see it..

You could jump in down webforms route.. which tries to make web development like winforms development.. and essentially makes a lot of subtle mess..

Over time you most likely will start to feel the constraints and 'ugly parts' of webforms.. but note that webforms is a very capable platform.. just not nec the most true to the vision of the web..

If you want to then take a route down a more true web route.. then you may go for an MVC/REST pattern in your applications.. in which case what you learnt for webforms will need to be 'unlearnt' to ensure you don't corrupt the concept of said paradigm..

The deal is..

You either go for webforms.. and it'll take some time to get used to vs winforms..

Or

You start learning more true web concepts.. like MVC's and RESTful design.. but it'll take you a lot longer to get the same production rate as you would with webforms..

That said.. it might just 'click' and you'll have the best from both worlds.. rapid development of well defined web applications..

For each of these you should consult:

http://www.asp.net/

As this site is dedicated to the web side of .NET

odujosh
Need Microsoft SUX now!

stevo_ wrote:

To be fair, w3bbo has a point but here's how I see it..

You could jump in down webforms route.. which tries to make web development like winforms development.. and essentially makes a lot of subtle mess..

Over time you most likely will start to feel the constraints and 'ugly parts' of webforms.. but note that webforms is a very capable platform.. just not nec the most true to the vision of the web..

If you want to then take a route down a more true web route.. then you may go for an MVC/REST pattern in your applications.. in which case what you learnt for webforms will need to be 'unlearnt' to ensure you don't corrupt the concept of said paradigm..

The deal is..

You either go for webforms.. and it'll take some time to get used to vs winforms..

Or

You start learning more true web concepts.. like MVC's and RESTful design.. but it'll take you a lot longer to get the same production rate as you would with webforms..

That said.. it might just 'click' and you'll have the best from both worlds.. rapid development of well defined web applications..

For each of these you should consult:

http://www.asp.net/

As this site is dedicated to the web side of .NET

I declare today independence from MVC. We shalt use the platform we choose. And burn the puratanical. Straps Stevo to a rocket.

stevo_
Casablanca != Manchester

Well.. I'm a big fan of the MVC.. but I'm not about to throw webforms away before the MVC is out and I've had enough time to become happy with it..

desiny

W3bbo - you have hit the nail on the head; what I have realised is that it is ME whom is in the wrong, Im not not doing it right - Im basically mxing asp 2/3 development with a style that worked with classic asp.

What Im confused about - it what is good practise? Without starting a MVC or not to MVC debate - I think this is the way to go but what is good ptractise in terms of backend struture?

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

stevo_ wrote:

Well.. I'm a big fan of the MVC.. but I'm not about to throw webforms away before the MVC is out and I've had enough time to become happy with it..

What's it called when you only use the server-only parts of webforms and throw out anything which touches the sanctity of your markup?

littleguru
allein, allein,... allein, allein!

desiny wrote:

W3bbo - you have hit the nail on the head; what I have realised is that it is ME whom is in the wrong, Im not not doing it right - Im basically mxing asp 2/3 development with a style that worked with classic asp.

What Im confused about - it what is good practise? Without starting a MVC or not to MVC debate - I think this is the way to go but what is good ptractise in terms of backend struture?

MVC for ASP.NET from Microsoft and the ScottGu team Wink

Btw. what's so wrong about postbacks? You always need to get the data from the server in some way. AJAX does postbacks too - maybe you could call them lightweight postbacks but they are still postbacks.

You have to not put 1:1 your windows forms skills to the web forms because that will indeed create a lot of overhead and bad performing/looking/being websites. But take it easy: ASP.NET gives you a framework that allows you to implement all the patterns you like and takes a lot of the pain away from you by hinding it under the covers.

Like custom controls in ASP.NET are a wonderful invention. Even the viewstate is nice - if used properly. The same applies to how you can separate the code from the markup - all nicely done! You can always kill anything with missusing it - but that's also possible in Windows forms applications.