Comment Feed for Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period (TheChannel9Team on Channel 9)

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Sean Cullinan — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:15:00 GMT

We are now trying to do some entity extraction from text and cannot do it easily because of the conversion to one space after a period from two. It is difficult to determine if a period is after an abbreviation vs the end of a sentence. I vote for 2 spaces after a period if the period is ending a sentence for this very reason!

Sean

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Joyce Johnson — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:32:36 GMT

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Re: Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Bill Hill — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:29:44 GMT

OK, this is Bill Hill. Sorry about the change of username. For some reason I couldn't connect with my old one, so I had to create a new one.

First thing to say is that I was utterly staggered and humbled to see that by now more than 140,000 people have watched this video. Thanks, everyone!

Second thing: What is a space?

If you're using a typewriter, or a monospaced font designed to emulate one, a space is a fixed size. Choose one after a period, or choose two, it's unimportant. Whatever makes you feel good and looks right to you. If you want it to look like it was typed on a typewriter, two probably looks more authentic. In fact, you need two spaces to differentiate from the single space between words.

I was talking about proportionally-spaced fonts - which these days means most fonts on your system - in which a "wordspace" could be different in any line, depending on how much or how little the composition engine has to distribute between the words.

The designer who spent months or years designing the font you're using also took the trouble to design what he or she calculated was the optimum value of a "space".

One space after a period was what the designer envisaged. And it'll be proportional to the type size you're using. And it will be easier to read. But if you think you know better, by all means go ahead and use two.

However, if I ever find myself editing your copy, the first thing I'll do is run Search-and-Replace to replace all the double-spaces with a single space, including all the ones between words that you never actually meant to be double-spaces - which I've found to be the single most common typo these days.

It's easy to do, because it's sometimes hard to tell with a proportionally-spaced font that you've typed two spaces, especially at smaller sizes. But they can cause reflow problems if left in. A global S-&-R is an easy operation, so leaving them in is sloppy and unprofessional IMO. Search-and-Replace is usually the very last thing I do on any copy, including my own, as a final cleanup.

So there's a practical reason for using only one space, too. Unless you want to step through all your spaces manually, replace only the mistakes, and keep the ones at the ends of sentences.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Jigar Mehta — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:02:21 GMT

WikiPedia Article on Full Stop says,
Spacing after full stop See: Double spacing, which includes a full history of spacing rules, a review of readability vs design implications, and a summary of current style guides. Alternatively, see that article's Style Preferences subsection for current practice.

There are three main conventions relating to the number of spaces used to separate sentences within the same paragraph:

one widened space, typically two to three times wider than an inter-word space (traditional typography)
two spaces (English Spacing or American Typewriter Spacing)
one space (French Spacing)

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

rosendorf — Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:18:40 GMT

Here's a post about the ( "Double-Space Debate" on Blogdorf.":http://rosendorf.us/blogdorf/archive/2005/07/14/449.aspx )

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Tubusy — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:10:40 GMT

Intrigued wrote:
*Now, look over both paragraphs a few times and see how your eyes catch on the double-space at the end of the sentences in the double-spaced paragraph? I believe this also gives one's mind a tad more time to consume each sentence.

That's exactly the problem. Or, at least, part of it. Think about it, you're applying the QWERTY logic to the very substance of reading - 'designing in' a flaw to slow the I/O of information. Surely we want text to flow as efficiantly and smoothly as possible, Not... Make iT h@Rder and, slower , t0; reAd? Obviously it suits the way your eyes/mind works, probably because you've just got used to it, but I'd suggest it certainly wouldn't be an approach to aspire to or standardise. ;)

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Tubusy — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:00:29 GMT

Thank you Bill! You are so right.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Debreuil — Wed, 25 May 2005 03:42:53 GMT

The frustrating part is that you know Bill is just dodging the real question: single space smileys, or no space smileys? Even the precious typography tomes seem to sidestep this one.

PPS Is a type designer who feels another type designer didn't leave enough space in the space allowed to use two? Is there some kind of greater pecking order involved?

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Intrigued — Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:31:35 GMT

I want to add that with two-spacing after a period, to me, will help when reading on a computer's monitor, LCD, etc., because there are so many different types and that wide varying amount of types occasional presents to me, the reader, a cluttered paragraph at times.

Single-Spaced:

I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities.

(Ah, why is this coming out like this? Ha! Wacky embedded text edtior anamoly) Well, that kind of skews my point)

Double-Spaced:

I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities. I love to program, repair, and use computers. Don't ask me why I like these activities.

*Now, look over both paragraphs a few times and see how your eyes catch on the double-space at the end of the sentences in the double-spaced paragraph? I believe this also gives one's mind a tad more time to consume each sentence.

Don't forget that one can adjust spacing around each type character. (aka. Leading) and that can lead to some text that really looks like multiple run-on sentences with regards to single-spacing after a period.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Intrigued — Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:11:26 GMT

I am a two-spacer, I also take delight in the fact that I do this:
one item, two items, and three items (note the comma before the and).

I have learned that certain aspects of the English language (quite a few actually) have, are, and will change from time-to-time). Such as the comma (,) before the and example above! (Credit: My college Proof-reading class and my persistence to know the reason-for-the-season sort of badgering style questioning of the instructor)

Also, some experts even disagree on which syntax should be used! Yikes! It seems to be common amongst those same experts that as long as you stay consistent through out your writings, then your syntax is just fine.

Re: As Homo Sapien 1.0 wastes more brain cells debating this issue...

Warnun — Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:06:48 GMT

There have been many interesting arguments on both sides of the issue. What is missing is some empirical data to back up these arguments.

Does anyone know where to find a published study on the readability of single spacing versus double spacing? How does a typical audience respond to each style? Do they respond differently to spacing in printed versus online text? Has anyone performed any actual measurements of reading time, comprehension, and audience willingness to read single-spaced versus double-spaced text?

Personally, I'm a double spacer, but I'm willing to change if someone can show me some real data "proving" that one way is better than the other.

Re: As Homo Sapien 1.0 wastes more brain cells debating this issue...

jsrfc58 — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:59:46 GMT

Okay, I was sitting here reading this thread and started thinking back to the days when I used to type on an old manual Royal typewritter (the ones with the ribbon and the little metal hammers). Back then, using two spaces after a period was the norm. Then, I started thinking about how that had changed over the years, and just as I tried to end a sentence, the period key stopped working on my PC keyboard So I said, that's funny, why would that happen Then, all the periods stopped working--the question marks, the exclaimation points, the colons--they all stopped Were they on strike They needed their space, they complained, and they refused to work until the 'two space' rule was reinstated After all, they said, we need our space So, I said, I cannot type without period keys, I'll find a substitute and the '+' key happily stepped in+ Now the +'s would surely have to cross the picket line ..................... and of course the periods would have none of that, for "no scrubs would ever take their place" and so only after a few fistfights they all sat down with the mediator, the &+ Days passed+ Hours went by+ Finally, in the eleventh hour, an agreement was reached. The periods would get their two spaces back, for, after all, they deserved plenty of room and respect. That would settle it. "Everyone knows that we are the most important part of any sentence," they boasted. "Whole meanings depend on our existence."

There was peace, of course, until the spaces decided to protest the idea of proportional fonts. After all, without adequate spaces, wholesentenceswouldcollapse.

Re: As Homo Sapien 1.0 wastes more brain cells debating this issue...

BillD — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:08:41 GMT

When considering recognition of the shapes of words, remember this "oldie but a goodie".

Did you konw taht the hmuan biran can raed wrods no mtater waht odrer the lteters are in as lnog as the fisrt and lsat lteters are croerct?

Yes, it is pattern recognition. Single and double spacing after a full stop is just a variation on this. What you are "used" to will always "the right way for me".

Habit can be your friend, and with only a little effort you can change any habit. I used to be a "two spacer", but converted. Actually it can also speed up one's typing as well. Think of all those extra space bar hits your poor thumb doesn't have to perform.

I have to admit though, the dual examples did seem to come across clearer with the two spaces. Hmmm, maybe I need to re-think my habits.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

AdvocatusDei — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:33:24 GMT

Grammar has necessarily conservative conventions. Of course, conventions should be reviewed for purpose and effect. The purpose for spacing is for improved readability, or faster comprehension. As an example, youcouldstringwordswithoutspacing. This lack of spacing between words slows comprehension, because you have to separate each word mentally. Each word represents a discrete idea. Extending this spacing concept as a method of compartmentalizing discrete ideas for faster comprehension, a period and double-spacing aid comprehension by separating one complete thought, or sentence, from another, which gives reason to pause and consider its plausibility.

or you could get extreme (you rebel, you) and abandon grammar altogether like e e cummings and adopt a stream of consciousness just dont expect others to understand you better good luck
;)

Cheers,
Jason

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

MegaTrain — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:24:27 GMT

sharprs: The use of phonics is really an entirely different discussion, primarily because teaching children to read (and write--which is really where phonics shines) is a different issue.

Ultimately, the goal is that students develop the ability to pattern-recognize words, but as that is developing, they need decoding skills to figure out words they don't already know.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Kenster999 — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:26:39 GMT

Bill,

On your point of never using underlines, I agree completely.

On your point of never using double spaces after a full-stop, I must disagree. Other users have given several good reasons for using double spaces, all of which I agree with.

In addition, I hate reading a professionally typeset, proportionally-spaced sentence which ends with something like "Washington, D.C." and whose next sentence starts with a proper noun. Without the double-space I can't always tell if the first sentence has ended. Just the other day I ran across such a sentence and had to stop and re-read it three times in order to parse it correctly!

Also, if all of these great typesetting rules have stuck around for a reason (ie, they work), they why is the rule about double-spacing suddenly bad? Didn't it work for all these years? Does it have no value?

Of course, you're quite possibly correct to draw a distinction between mono-spaced and proportionally-spaced type. I think that in my case, my eye is trained to expect to see double spaces in mono type, while at the same time is used to whatever standard is used in professional typography (single spacing, apparently). I see no reason why the two can't co-exist peacefully, esp. as a computer should be able to convert between the two. (BTW, can't typographers come up with a solution to my "...Washington, D.C. Bush..." problem?)

Even though I'm not a typographer, I still care deeply about this stuff. You can aruge about it until you're blue in the face, but I'll need a better reason to change my habits.

Incidentally, I was taught both rules (not underlining, and using double spaces) in school. Not that that proves their correctness, mind you, but it certainly makes my worldview a little more satisfying.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

sharprs — Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:06:27 GMT

What I find interesting here is that some people are saying it's bad because it's antiquated. There's a funny "rule" we have that says "Don't use prepositions at the end of sentences." Well why not? It's completely arbitrary. But they still force it on us. Why? Because it's the nature of language. So, why do so many of us still double-space between sentences? Because it's the nature of society to perpetuate practices as long as they have no ill effects.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, a ton of the confusion comes from the difference between term-paper writing and book publishing. You see, in my days in school, any paper we wrote would be left-aligned, double-spaced (line spacing), lots of header crap, centered unadorned title, name + page numbers on all but the first page, indent every paragraph, MLA style references. Really the important point there was left-aligned. I don't recall ever having read a book that was left-aligned. They're all fully justified. As far as writing my papers goes, Word makes absolutely no spacing decisions, other than when to word-wrap and whatever comes as part of the font. Because it's left-aligned. If I wanted justified, I would single space. Because then things do get wacky.

Here's some reasons I double space...

- when I search for a sentence, I rely on greater spacing (legally blind here)
- when I read something left-aligned I feel unfulfilled if it's single-spaced
- because it's the way I've always done it, and since there is nothing evil about it, there's no reason to stop now

I'd also like to affirm whoever said that everyone reads by pattern-recognition. That's actually why I'd never teach a kid by "phonics," because it just wouldn't work. But that doesn't mean we don't interperet punctuation. Like the period in illogical places, we notice. Like a contraction with no apostrophe, wed notice. We'd read it right, but we'd notice. So to my linguistic mind, it makes perfect sense to have two spaces in left-aligned documents as a secondary end-of-thought marker. Especially if we're going to read out loud.

Interesting thought, before I go: In books and newspapers, ever come across the line you couldn't read? I have. And it's because the spacing failed. Miserably.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

kitkat — Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:18:19 GMT

Re: Suzetta's post of 5/18

Perhaps it's because I've been reading voraciously for almost 40 years now, but I can't remember the last time I felt 'threatened' by a block of text. Content, yes, but just the look of it? No.

Conversely, because I am so used to reading fairly quickly (though I admit I do still hear the words in my head), I found the two-space version of your paragraph irritating compared to the more familiar one-space version. I mean irritating like a mental itch, not irritating like a pet peeve. The visual interruption was rather like listening to someone with a silent stutter--waiting for the next thought made me more and more impatient.

One thing I think people misunderstand when they advocate for two spaces is that a paragraph is a series of connected thoughts, not just a collection of discreet statements. When the flow of those connected thoughts is interrupted visually, it is also interrupted mentally and therefore harder to follow. This is true for me, and I believe it would be true for most people who are comfortable with written language.

For context, I am a technical editor with a background in writing and editing newsletter articles and marketing material. And as you can see, I am also a firm believer in single spaces after a period. Besides improving readability, it saves time and keystrokes! :)

Double spacers are ok with me!

gswitz — Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:20:28 GMT

I like the look of them, even tho they're wrong. I prefer to be wrong, sometimes. For that matter, when writing database text to the output stream, I replace spaces with  s to make sure they are represented as the typist entered them.

Power to the typist!

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

rjdohnert — Mon, 28 Jun 2004 05:58:07 GMT

Good video Bill, I learned typing on a typewriter and it took me forever to break the habits of two spaced. I still use underlines in the title of a roughdraft and stuff like that but on a professional report or article I do use Bold or italics for the title,

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Steve411 — Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:36:42 GMT

Bill Wins..

Re: As Homo Sapien 1.0 wastes more brain cells debating this issue...

AndyC — Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:54:33 GMT

jaraco wrote:

Could you explain how proportionally-spaced fonts has any bearing on the number of spaces to follow a sentence? On the surface, the spacing of fonts seems as if it could affect the spacing after a sentence, but I don't see anywhere that it does.

You naturally read mono-spaced text slower because your eyes can't easily "see" word and sentence shapes with them. To some exent double spaces help you to differentiate between words and sentences.

Proportional fonts are much more natural and your eyes can more easily identify the shape of words, as such you don't need the additional space, it just slows your reading further.

jaraco wrote:

Some have claimed that "reading" that extra space takes extra time, but that can only be the case for someone who reads character by character, and I'll guarantee that 99% of the population does not read that way. The fastest readers don't even parse the text word by word, but rather in grammatical and structural chunks.

Actually nobody (except small children maybe) reads like that. We recognize the shapes of words much more than the letters within them.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

bluelife — Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:27:11 GMT

Hi, I'm new here, first of all I'd like to say hello:)

I was born in England (no worries Bill, my Grandad was from Fife) and this was never ever discussed there as far as I know. I have always used one space after what we call a full-stop.

I have a couple of questions though:

1. If hyperlinks shouldn't be underlined (except per hover), which emphasis can be used in your opinion? Italic destroys small fonts, bold, as someone said (I think Bill) destroys the "whole picture" and using different colours can be too subtle sometimes and also destroy the flow.

2. This is something I have never been sure of.
If I write "...he danced quite often...according to his brother, he was seventeen at the time..." - how do I use the "..."; should I have a space before or after the "..."?

Regards,

Richard

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Hollasch — Fri, 21 May 2004 19:44:23 GMT

I've been a staunch double-spacer since my seventh-grade typing class, have been known to reformat text to correspond with this. This whole thread has been quite interesting; I've known Bill for a while, and his opinions on typography carry a lot of weight with me. Whipping out a ruler and opening the nearest book convinced me that I've been reading single-spaced text just fine for probably my whole life, even though I didn't realize it. Further, it turns out my wife converted to single-spacing years ago when she became a technical writer (I'd fathered children with a single-spacer without even knowing it!)

What's most surprising to me is that I've converted over with relative ease -- I'd have thought that this would be hard-wired into my genes at this point, but I guess the brain is pretty good at adapting.

Interestingly, I've also converted to single-spacing my mono-sized code comments, and to no ill effect that I can see. I believe that a lot of these objections about "too many dots" are overblown, though I reserve the right to double-space if I feel it's absolutely necessary.

All in all, I'm a convert.

Re: Bill Hill - There is only one space after a period

Suzetta — Tue, 18 May 2004 13:05:17 GMT

This is deeply fascinating - for me, and many people I have talked to about the issue, single spaces after a full-stop cause innattentive reading, as they skim across sentence aftre sentence and find they have reached the end of a paragraph without actually taking in the substance of the text.

Additionally, there is no apparent aesthetic or utilitarian benefit to the single space system. As pointed out above, the '.' is used in so many ways now that the end of sentence needs to have a clear indication over and above the dot. A single space just doesn't cut it, even if we leave out words starting with a dot. As a quick example, I have put this paragraph in twice - it is nothing out of the ordinary as a piece of text - and would welcome honest opinions on which looks and reads better.

Additionally, there is no apparent aesthetic or utilitarian benefit to the single space system. As pointed out above, the '.' is used in so many ways now that the end of sentence needs to have a clear indication over and above the dot. A single space just doesn't cut it, even if we leave out words starting with a dot. As a quick example, I have put this paragraph in twice - it is nothing out of the ordinary as a piece of text - and would welcome honest opinions on which looks and reads better.

I can see where the sentences are in the first version at a glance - the 'bullet holes' mentioned. But then I want to be able to get meaning out of text when I read it, and knowing how far I am about to read in one go helps this process. The double spaced version is less threatening, because I can see that it comes in distinct parts. Perhaps it would be different if the sentences didn't all start with 'A'.