PDC05 Road Trip - Episode 1

I know that I have a huge bias here, but I really think that MS is doing a really great thing when it comes to RSS. The beautiful part of it is that amount of work that an application developer no longer has to do. I think that RSS is going to be so much broader because MS is putting the work they are doing into the platform. The nice part is that this is not novel work… soon you’ll see these kind of platform investments in every platform. The surprising part is that any one else could have done the work first, but MS did. I think this may be the first time in a long time that MS has done something big that other people will emulate. Because knowing what RSS is and parsing XML for a dev is absolutely useless. It’s like knowing how to handle a TCP/IP packet. It’s the start of a brand new world. And when you can synch your databases, web directories, book marks, photos, calendars, reports, contacts, sales pipelines and everything else you can think of over RSS, you can have announcements like this to thank for kicking it off.
Lets hope everyone waits a day or two before someone submits this to /. and Channel 9 goes down again.
dahat wrote:Lets hope everyone waits a day or two before someone submits this to /. and Channel 9 goes down again.
ScobleEtAl wrote:Check it out, first video demos of Longhorn and IE 7.
Hmm... I guess if the RSS/List for XP library is released around longhorn's release date (or later), then the group might be scooped by developers out there reading the specs. What's the chances that the library be released before (hopefully way before) longhorn?scobleizer wrote:Minh: Dean just announced on stage that most of this stuff will be on XP as well. There are some technical challenges they are trying to solve as it comes to the synchronization part, but he said the rest of this stuff will be on XP too.
Orbit86 wrote:one thing that gets to me is if the NT kernel doesnt get changed why do they need to write new drivers for every version of windows?
If you think that's all they did you weren't watching the videoOrbit86 wrote:they just changed the interface and wrote some new features that don't surprise me..whats next?
Orbit86 wrote:nope, devs even say it they can't change it
Orbit86 wrote:the article was written in 2001
"Windows XP provides support for 64-bit processors"
yet MS just shipped a x64 edition
TDavid wrote:Has anybody put up a link to where the RSS extention spec is at yet? Did I just miss something obvious? Dean said it would be available at noon today, which I assumed was noon PST.
Thanks
waltal wrote:I missed the first post by this much >> <<<!
I gotta say, great application Walter!
And the whole thing is stupendous and great. This makes my day. The team has a tiger by the tail. The best of luck to y'all in delivering a great set of features for us developers.
dahat wrote:Lets hope everyone waits a day or two before someone submits this to /. and Channel 9 goes down again.
"What happens if there are multiple feeds on a page, but they are for different things? For example, lets say my company site has a "News" feed and a "CEO" feed, will IE7 only see the first one listed on the page?"
I am wondering about this too. Some blogs have an RSS feed per category. I could see a simple solution to this. Make that RSS on IE7 be a button with a drop down. Get the first (or default) feed when you click the button. Press the drop down arrow and
see all the other feeds you can subscribe to.
Flyer wrote:Ah, so everyone at MS is a Program Manager?
The Beta 1 implementation is that very thing, although we're planning on changing it. The demo today showed something closer to final implementation.hillr wrote:"What happens if there are multiple feeds on a page, but they are for different things? For example, lets say my company site has a "News" feed and a "CEO" feed, will IE7 only see the first one listed on the page?"
I am wondering about this too. Some blogs have an RSS feed per category. I could see a simple solution to this. Make that RSS on IE7 be a button with a drop down. Get the first (or default) feed when you click the button. Press the drop down arrow and see all the other feeds you can subscribe to.
hillr wrote:"What happens if there are multiple feeds on a page, but they are for different things? For example, lets say my company site has a "News" feed and a "CEO" feed, will IE7 only see the first one listed on the page?"
I am wondering about this too. Some blogs have an RSS feed per category. I could see a simple solution to this. Make that RSS on IE7 be a button with a drop down. Get the first (or default) feed when you click the button. Press the drop down arrow and see all the other feeds you can subscribe to.
BruceMorgan wrote:Note that with many websites, the autodiscovery list is not really multiple contents feeds so much as multiple content formats. That's not really helpful to very many users.
Maurits wrote:But surely control should be given to the site publisher to decide how best to serve their user profiles. Sites that are less technical in nature could simply scale back to a single feed option. Ian Hickson could continue to offer plaintext and HTML formats of his feed.
BruceMorgan wrote:Nothing we're doing prevents a publisher from listing multiple feeds via autodiscovery.
Orbit86 wrote:Mauritis where did you get that Einstein quote?
There will be many more pages with one feed associated with the page than pages with multiple feeds (excluding format differences).Maurits wrote:
BruceMorgan wrote: Nothing we're doing prevents a publisher from listing multiple feeds via autodiscovery.
... yes it is. I myself have a website on which I was going to offer multiple autodiscovery feeds (linked from the same HTML page, with different content.) IE7's demoed behavior is causing me to change my mind - I'll have to stick to orange XML buttons so that users won't get confused by the RSS button in the IE chrome. Maybe I'll hack up a conditional comment to hide the autodiscovery feeds from IE7... ah, the irony...
Things should be as simple as possible - but no simpler.
-- Albert Einstein
BruceMorgan wrote:There will be many more pages with one feed associated with the page than pages with multiple feeds (excluding format differences).
Maurits wrote:Couldn't you have a button and a drop-down, show the button for sites with one feed, and show the drop-down for sites with multiple feeds?
Or just have a button, and if the site has multiple feeds, have the button pop up a dialog with a list of checkboxes, with only the first one checked by default?
Maurits wrote:I'm a little confused as to why you think multiple formats will be of low value to end users. Surely that depends heavily on the audience. Suppose the feed is a video feed - I imagine there's value in allowing at least three feed formats (Windows Media, QuickTime, Real...)
eddwo wrote:IMHO it should be like the IE back and forward buttons. A simple button you can just click that goes to the first feed, but with a down arrow segment for a drop down list that lets you choose a specific feed.
BruceMorgan wrote:By multiple formats, I mean "RSS .92, RSS 1.0, RSS 2.0, ATOM" - a list of transport formats is of low value to the user. I don't mean video vs. text.
pikatung wrote:
Or an option that can change the behaviour from either a simple button or a dropdown box.
eddwo wrote:IMHO it should be like the IE back and forward buttons.
Maurits wrote:
eddwo wrote:IMHO it should be like the IE back and forward buttons.
Speaking of which... where are they???
Orbit86 wrote:letting a user save a specific image,file on the real hard drive is easy, but it can distinguish from a "bad" entity out in webspace trying to get threw IE from a security risk...
<xmlns="cf:http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005">
<cf:blah/>
is the same as
<xmlns="MSList:http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005">
<MSList:blah/>
The prefix is just used by the parser to map back to the namespace URI.
So long as the URI is correct, and the prefix
is used consistently within the document, what the prefix actually is
doesn't effect the end result.
To the parser, no, the value of the namespace does not matter if it is referenced consistently within the document, but then again, neither does the element name. You could have <a:b> instead of <simplelist:listinfo>, the point was to make it easy to understand without having both the parser and the developer to read an entire schema.eddwo wrote:Arn't namespace prefixes irrelevant?
<xmlns="cf:http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005">
<cf:blah/>
is the same as
<xmlns="MSList:http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/rss/core/2005">
<MSList:blah/>
The prefix is just used by the parser to map back to the namespace URI.
So long as the URI is correct, and the prefix
is used consistently within the document, what the prefix actually is
doesn't effect the end result.
Orbit86 wrote:you are complicating the process, their is always a way, noone thought you could run two programs at once.....the "gloving" theory just came to me a few minutes ago so I don't have all the answers right now, give me some time and I'll write something
Orbit86 wrote:what I don't get is they are raving about the new fast search feature while MSN desktop search is the same thing , this shouldnt be a new feature that they are raving about
What about cookies, cache, and favourites? These are all stored on disk.Orbit86 wrote:let me ask you something to the IE Devs, Since IE doesn't really need to do heavy reading\writing to the hard drive while surfing the web
Ya i want a longhorn loves rss t-shirt too Btw i'm keeping track of all the articles and pictures currently that i find on
my blog as well in
this article incase anyone missed some
chris31 wrote:I'm also not to excited about the calender feature as I don't know anyone that would publicly publish their calender and if they did I wouldn't care were they were 24/7? Perhaps usefull for business but worthless to a home user. .
drylight wrote:MS discovers RSS (late) and it's a big deal? This has already been done by others. IE7 is due soon, Longhorn in 2006? Others are way ahead of the game when it comes to RSS. MS is not innovative, has nothing new or exciting, there are other players which have already done this stuff. Show us something new, don't copy, try to innovate.
drylight wrote:That's MS's job (to innovate), not mine. It just seems like this RSS in IE7 and Longhorn (due next year) is all over the bloggersphere when it's really nothing new. MS have not created something new, something cool, there is no "wow" factor in this. Others are already placing RSS in the software (or OS). RSS in IE7 (not yet available), already done by others. Searching accross all your files on your machine (due in Longhorn), already done. Tabs in IE7 (not yet available), already done. MS's products aren't exciting.
drylight wrote:We may be looking at two slightly different angles here. I guess I am thinking about this more from an end-user point of view, not from a developer's. And that's not to say that I am completely closed to MS's innovations. I am a C# developer, and I like the language and .NET framework a lot. I certainly think they did a better job of creating a new language and managed/garbage collected, etc. development environment than what Sun did with Java. So I'm not completely anti-MS.
TomasDeml wrote:I haven't seen the video yet, but is this RSS functionality supposed to be exposed through the managed code?
Jeremy W. wrote:
TomasDeml wrote:I haven't seen the video yet, but is this RSS functionality supposed to be exposed through the managed code?
Exposed through managed code?
It's exposed through a documented set of API's. It shouldn't matter if it's managed or not.
Jeremy W. wrote:
TomasDeml wrote:I haven't seen the video yet, but is this RSS functionality supposed to be exposed through the managed code?
Exposed through managed code?
It's exposed through a documented set of API's. It shouldn't matter if it's managed or not.
drylight wrote:Longhorn seems to be a very big ship which is hard to steer, with releases taking many years, with infrequent updates. By the time it comes out others will have moved on to other things. For a lot of the things coming out they seem to be reactionary. When a competitor announces something in their product, you hear the MS guys saying, "yeah sure we got that in Longhorn". And if they actually don't have it in there, the release is so far away they could squeeze it in by then. Highly innovative? Because it builds on something new? Unseen? They are playing catch up. For example, they fell asleep with IE and now have ramped up development on it again. What else besides tabs and RSS are they doing? Anything new? When I see people using IE these days I always think "you're still using that?!?". Why people persits with it amazes me. Use Firefox (or Safari) for five minutes and you should be sold on it and dump IE, unless you need to visit some IE-only friendly web site.
drylight wrote:MS discovers RSS (late) and it's a big deal? This has already been done by others. IE7 is due soon, Longhorn in 2006? Others are way ahead of the game when it comes to RSS. MS is not innovative, has nothing new or exciting, there are other players which have already done this stuff. Show us something new, don't copy, try to innovate.
drylight wrote:Longhorn seems to be a very big ship which is hard to steer, with releases taking many years, with infrequent updates. By the time it comes out others will have moved on to other things. For a lot of the things coming out they seem to be reactionary. When a competitor announces something in their product, you hear the MS guys saying, "yeah sure we got that in Longhorn". And if they actually don't have it in there, the release is so far away they could squeeze it in by then. Highly innovative? Because it builds on something new? Unseen? They are playing catch up. For example, they fell asleep with IE and now have ramped up development on it again. What else besides tabs and RSS are they doing? Anything new? When I see people using IE these days I always think "you're still using that?!?". Why people persits with it amazes me. Use Firefox (or Safari) for five minutes and you should be sold on it and dump IE, unless you need to visit some IE-only friendly web site.
Oh, you sure misunderstood something there. MS said they weren't going for the Wow Factor with the WinHEC 2005 build of Longhorn. You can rest assured that MS is the last one that wouldn't go for the wow experience, since that drives sales.Orbit86 wrote:
MS said they werent going for the Wow Factor...
Orbit86 wrote:
I'm tried of Longhorn, but Linux is not ready for Desktop and OS X is better but costs too much to transfer
drylight wrote:Longhorn seems to be a very big ship which is hard to steer, with releases taking many years, with infrequent updates. By the time it comes out others will have moved on to other things. For a lot of the things coming out they seem to be reactionary. When a competitor announces something in their product, you hear the MS guys saying, "yeah sure we got that in Longhorn". And if they actually don't have it in there, the release is so far away they could squeeze it in by then. Highly innovative? Because it builds on something new? Unseen? They are playing catch up. For example, they fell asleep with IE and now have ramped up development on it again. What else besides tabs and RSS are they doing? Anything new? When I see people using IE these days I always think "you're still using that?!?". Why people persits with it amazes me. Use Firefox (or Safari) for five minutes and you should be sold on it and dump IE, unless you need to visit some IE-only friendly web site.
Beer28 wrote:I want to chime in and say that no one could pay me enough to wear one of those t-shirts.
Nice job on including rss subscriptions though.
rjdohnert wrote:
Nobody would have to pay me to wear one of those shirts. They just look cool. How much would I need to pay to get one?
Jeremy W. wrote:
Exposed through managed code?
It's exposed through a documented set of API's. It shouldn't matter if it's managed or not.
rjdohnert wrote:
Beer28 wrote: I want to chime in and say that no one could pay me enough to wear one of those t-shirts.
Nice job on including rss subscriptions though.
Nobody would have to pay me to wear one of those shirts. They just look cool. How much would I need to pay to get one?
Kosher wrote:I have to say, I don't like RSS. RSS is like that XML document that you get that has all kinds of formatting issues, (I need to watch my language) just nested all over the place, and your boss says "Here now make this work in our application"...I liked when Microsoft had the webservices vision of everything, not this RSS vision of everything. What RSS fails to address is the ability to post data as well as retrieve. It assumes all data is shared and that nothing is typed. **sigh**I guess I enjoy the intellisense in vs.net a little too much. When the world is an item and nothing is typed, things start to get messy. No data integrity, no reusable schemas, everything is just, whatever.Oh well... I guess we can all start using VB again and working in untyped languages. And start doing XSLTs for a living.T
BobSil1 wrote:Seriously, the RSS button is uber-geeky. Pass the mom test? Hardly. Call it Subscribe.
I'm all for playing well, but you have to simplify when transitioning it to the mass market.
djtrip wrote:If Microsoft really wants to impress me with a new feature in IE 7 then why don't they start by making it compatible with the Internet standards which were laid out years ago. Do they really think I can be easily excited by features I'm already using in Safari, FireFox and iCal right now? (tabs, RSS and ICS).
This can/will have very far reaching impacts.....will be fun to watch it evolve out of the "blog" space and into the day to day lives of everyone...
Or, for something more accurate, try this from Kevin Schofield.Rossj wrote:Try this.
Rossj wrote:
NetRyder wrote:Uhh..who let the Slashdot crowd in?
scobleizer wrote:RHM: it's not just the bloggers. ">http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1831451,00.asp"> Google News reports 243 mainstream news articles including in the BBC, BusinessWeek, Reuters, and Associated Press.
scobleizer wrote:RHM: it's not just the bloggers. ">http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1831451,00.asp"> Google News reports 243 mainstream news articles including in the BBC, BusinessWeek, Reuters, and Associated Press.
rhm wrote:
Multiple major original technologies get dropped from Longhorn (WinFS, Avalon, Indigo, Monad, even the whole .NET2 CLR) and Scoble say "it's OK, there's still great stuff in there, we just can't tell you about it yet".
All those technologies are developer APIs. And WinFX (Avalon, Indigo, and .NET 2.0) are certainly in there. I don't think anyone outside Microsoft knows what's going in Longhorn in terms of user features. You've heard them go on about a couple features in the shell like desktop search but Longhorn is about big sweeping changes and polish not tons of individual features (although there are many).
There are hundreds of teams inside Longhorn all working on new features or improving existing Windows components. You think when Longhorn comes out next year, all those developers were sitting idle for the past 5 years?
How does this work if one have several machines?
I use NewsGator, because it aggregates to Outlook/Exchange, and if I read a RSS post on one machine then it is automatically marked as read on other machines.
With 30 RSS Feeds, one doesn't want to read the same think twice.
I'm not using a roaming profile, because my home PC is not part of my company’s domain.
If this is not supported, I think I'll stick with NewsGator.
Thomas
PS: 5 Program Manager for this job? Why is this so hard? Maybe they should learn about this think called .NET.
Orbit, the ‘other operating systems vs msft’ case has already happened, you know, back in the late 90’s.
Comment removed at user's request.
eddwo wrote:
Maurits wrote:
eddwo wrote:IMHO it should be like the IE back and forward buttons.
Speaking of which... where are they???
Thats a Longhorn style window, so the back-forward buttons are no longer part of the toolbar and are now more like part of the window chrome.
In Longhorn Shell Windows + IE7 + WinFX Navigation Applications will share a common style of back-forward button in to top left corner of the chrome.
Not much useful knowledge on the blog.And the blog is leisurely to reveal, albeit interesting.