Scott Guthrie - Demo of next version of ASP.NET (Happy Birthday Video #1)

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As part of our birthday celebration, we took a trip back to see Scott Guthrie, Product Unit Manager on Web Platform and Tools team, and get a demo of the next version of ASP.NET (er, Visual Studio 2005 for Web Development).

We specifically talk about Web Standards Features in the next version of Visual Studio. Microsoft talking about Web Standards? Huh?

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    The Discussion

    • User profile image
      ZippyV
      Refactoring sounds really cool!
      A long video so I got a couple of questions:
      • Why can the Intellisence thingy only work with xsd files and not DTD's ?
      • Is XHTML Strict also available?
    • User profile image
      scottgu
      We support intellisense on XML files that have either an XSD or DTD schema.  So for pure XML intellisense we work with either.

      For HTML intellisense we have a standard schema that people can use to implement the intellisense rules.  I think it is XSD based (although need to double-check) to make it extensible and allow you to add your own new html formats to the list.

      We do provide built-in validation/intellisense support for XHTML strict as well as for transitional.

      Hope this helps,

      Scott
    • User profile image
      urbandude
      I think I'm in love...  This is the first video I've seen here that really got me excited about Microsoft tools.  If I made a list of things I wanted to see in a web development tool + platform, this video is it. 

      I played around with Web Developer Beta 1 and had to stop using it because I felt like I was teasing myself.  I'm really looking forward to Beta 2.   Any news on when it'll get pushed out? 
    • User profile image
      irascian
      On the subject of Accessibility it was noticeable on the free training for C# ASP.NET 2.0 CD that Ken Getz and his company put out that server side controls were generating deprecated 'b' tags instead of the semantic 'strong' tag encouraged for use in screen readers.

      Is this fixed in beta 2?

      If not, will it be fixed in the release?

      We took a lot of pain with accessibility on datagrid. Even the ASP.NET 1.1 Rollout fix that claimed compliance with accessibility legislation only fixed the problem with header tags being generated as tds and added a caption property - the required table 'summary' property was not included and trying to get label for working with radio buttons in a data grid - well let's not go there. Is this sort of issue going to be fixed in Whidby?
    • User profile image
      urbandude
      Another question: any chance of datagrid tables outputing a proper table using thead > tfoot > tbody using th and td?

    • User profile image
      MasterPi
      I'm surprised W3bbo isn't up and posting in this topic yet.

      Hmm, is he sick? Perplexed

      mVPstar
    • User profile image
      dmarsh
      Was I the only one that kept thinking Scott was going to bump his cup of soda(?) over every time he turned back around to his laptop? Smiley

      Heheh, great video though. My team's really dying to move to VS2005 almost solely for the HTML editor enhancements. Wink
    • User profile image
      vbNullString
      Great demo as always. VS 2005 really excites me almost as much as the first version of VS .NET. This is a huge release in my opinion. It will change the way we develop applications to a great degree. Can't wait for the MSDN event where they will distribute the DVD for VS 2005 Beta 2!
    • User profile image
      rasx
      So I'm at 24:16 in the 50:32 video and am wondering about new features around saving all of these custom settings and easily exporting them from machine to machine.

      I am extremely impressed with the new level of respectful intimacy and thoughtfulness in this release. The Express editions will blow Macromedia tools out of the water. My brand new copy of Dreamweaver MX 2004 can't even keep tab windows open without flickering them from time to time.
    • User profile image
      Koen

      Due date seems to be April 25th.
      http://www.microsoft.com/emea/msdn/betaexperience/

      grtz

      koen

    • User profile image
      Keith J. Farmer
      Note:  that was for Europe, etc...  A lot of non-English SKUs.
    • User profile image
      dotnetjunkie
      Talking about the development server, Scott's last words of this sentence weren't very well pronounced, but I guess this was what he really wanted to say to Robert: "You don't have to worry about Charles connecting to your development box and turning your code into spaghetti." Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile

      Oh, I love these videos about VS.NET 2005, please make more of them, because 50 mins is way too short to explain all the exciting new stuff!!!  You should do a Whidbey video every week, each time discussing only one or a few new features, but really going deep into them!
    • User profile image
      dotnetjunkie

      Hm, I noticed something that bothered me in Beta1 already: if you add a new file to your project, it opens in source mode by default (so it's showing the html for an aspx page for example instead of the designer like it used to be). I think most of the time you start working in design mode (dragging controls to your page etc.) so that should really be the default display mode.  Why was this changed?

    • User profile image
      scobleizer
      More Whidbey videos ahead!

      Maybe not every week, but you'll see more.
    • User profile image
      scottgu
      Hi DotNetjunkie,

      We changed the default from loading the page in the designer to the source editor because we've seen a number of developers say that prefer source mode over a design surface.

      The good news is that you can configure the behavior anyway you want -- just go to the preferences dialog box if you prefer design-mode when opening files.  We'll then honor it anytime you open one.

      Hope this helps,

      Scott
    • User profile image
      scottgu
      Hi Rasx,

      You can actually export and import all settings within VS 2005 to XML files.  This makes it easy to copy them from machine to machine, as well as use them in group developer scenarios. 

      Just go to the Tools->Import and Export Settings menu item and a wizard will walk you through it.

      Hope this helps,

      Scott
    • User profile image
      MGrassman
      I have alot of application in classic asp right now and using any of the 2003 VS IDEs I can't seem to get Classic ASP Intellisence to work.  Is there an option for this in 2005 or is this not going to be supported.

      Keep up the good work.
    • User profile image
      scottgu
      Hi MGrassman,

      We don't officially support classic ASP with VS 2005, although I was just playing around with it and you'll probably find that you get an ok experience.

      Specifically, because there is no longer a project file for web-projects, you don't have to worry about adding it to "a project" in order for the files to show up.  Instead just copy a .asp file into you site directory and you are good to go. 

      There is still some intellisense support for classic ASP in the text editor.  I noticed that objects like request, response, etc do have code statement completion. You also get full support for HTML statement completion, xhtml validation, tag navigator, etc support for classic ASP contnet.

      Hope this helps.  I'd recommend downloading the Visual Web Developer express edition when the beta comes out and giving it a try to see if this meets your classic asp needs.

      Thanks,

      Scott
    • User profile image
      scottgu

      Hi Irascian,

      The WCAG and 508 guidelines don't say much about using 'strong' in place of 'b'.  We are looking into it more, though, to see if there is a formal recommendation.  I believe JAWS (the most popular screen reader out there) fully supports both. 

      The "summary" attribute for a table is actually a pri3 WCAG requirement.  You can add it with both ASP.NET 1.1 and ASP.NET 2.0 by setting a "summary" attribute on the 'asp: datagrid' or 'asp: gridview' controls.  This will then be passed through to the output as an expando property.

      Radiobuttons and checkboxes inside a datagrid now output a 'for' attribute which associates them with the corresponding label element -- so this should no longer be a problem with ASP.NET V2.0.  I have a code workaround that I can send you for ASP.NET V1.1 that shows how to-do that today (unfortunately this doesn't work built-in).

      Hope this helps,

      Scott

    • User profile image
      irascian
      Thanks Scott. I'm excited again now Smiley

      I've been reading that b and i are deprecataed and should be avoided for some time now and certainly worked in several shops where it's been explained to me that b and i are semantically meaningless where strong and em aren't and are better supported by JAWS (I haven't got JAWS installed so have no idea of the truth of this) - hence my assumption they should not be used.

      I've actually got radio buttons working inside grid controls although the code is pretty hacky involving the usual inheritance and some rather shady work with client-side ids.



      As a final note I guess my big request here is I hope the documentation for the controls and/or the intellisense documents these new features. Ideally we need a one-to-one mapping between server control attributes and the HTML they generate, which has always been seriously lacking up to now. When trying to make the datagrid more DDA-compliant I found four pages of advice on google groups (yeah, yeah I know!) telling me that the datagrid didn't support th generation from header elements with reply after reply saying "use the repeater instead - it's the only way" before I hit the ASP.NET 1.1 rollout fix solution on page 5 of the results list, with its mention of the new attribute (I don't have the fix details to hand but I think it was "UseAccessibility=true"). The hotfix note claiming this made the datagrid compliant mentioned nothing about "summary" (only "caption") so I ended up with my own control inheriting from datagrid that overwrites the "render" method, and traps write element and write attribute events so that when a table element is being output it sets a flag and then that flag causes the attribute render event to do an AddAttribute for the missing "summary" tag.  I guess I'll be reworking that hack on Monday Wink

      We've used a similar technique to remove invalid attributes (that appear to not even be used anyway) on the validation summary control so if there's any attributes there that might help remove those hacks we'd be interested to hear of them, or where the best place for finding out where some of this stuff is documented.

      Anyway, thanks again. The answers given here and in the other thread have helped resolve issues that have been troubling developes at several shops I've worked at for some time.  I'm looking forward to getting the beta 2 to do some hand on myself later this month.
    • User profile image
      MGrassman
      Thanks for the info.

      I'll check it out.
    • User profile image
      rhm
      File download seems broken for this post (proceeds very slowly and eventually breaks). Other videos download fine.
    • User profile image
      davesea
      Channel 9 Guys - This was great! Let me echo some of the other posters and say keep the videos on VS 2005 coming.

      To Scott Guthrie and your team -

      The features you guys have implemented in this release absolutely rocks. I'm a relatively new ASP.NET developer and I was trying to use VS 2003 for my development. But, creating so many new files automatically (as VS 2003 does) is more than a little disconcerting for a new developer.

      I found myself hand-coding all my ASP.NET stuff in Homesite+ just for the simplicity and the fact that it allows me to focus on the code rather than wonder what the heck VS is doing to my files. After the great experience of designing/testing Windows forms apps in VS 2003, trying to build ASP.NET apps was a pain by comparison. I think it's a case where more (as in more automation) was not better - it was just more.

      Nevertheless, I really like the approach you guys seem to be taking with VS 2005. Personally, I also like the default setting of opening in source view rather than design view.

      Anyway, great work, guys! Keep it up!

      DaveSea (Dave in Seattle)
    • User profile image
      chrisward

      I almost wept when I found out that visual studio leaves my html code alone between view modes Big Smile

      I loved the way <script> showed a squiggely red error for not supplying the mandatory type attribute Smiley

      It really shows that you're starting to take some consideration towards the real needs of webdevelopers, and for that I am finding it much easier to accept using tools such as VS.

      Thankyou guys!




      my worries

      intellisense and standards

      I think it's a bit poor though, that intellisense schemas are provided through choice, and not by the DTD explicity defined.

      adaptive rendering

      Also, asp.net uses an 'adaptive rendering' engine, which made me have to stay til' 2am last night to fix an issue with firefox!
      Sniffing a UAString is WRONG WRONG WRONG! I hope this is fixed in Whidbey.

      collapsable html trees

      Collapsable html is a welcome feature, but sometimes even in codebehind mode it confuses me!

      It's difficult to see how far my code reaches down a page, when i expand the tree.

      It's a usability gripe, but maybe you guys should consider having a faded colour behind the expanded tree that was recently collapsed, so developers can overview what just happened?

    • User profile image
      zubairdotnet
      Hi,

      How can I save this video, when I click [Save] it opens up a new window then fires my Media Player, but I cant seem to find any option to save this complete video instead of streaming.

      Zubair Dot Net
    • User profile image
      scobleizer
      In Internet Explorer, right-click on the [Save] link and choose "save target as."
    • User profile image
      Grendelous

      Hi,
      Thanks for putting this together. I've got one query, Scott mentioned a website several times that would have the V2 quickstarts posted. I could not make out the address he quoted.

      Can anyone help me out here?

    • User profile image
      Grendelous
      No one want to help me out on this, please?
    • User profile image
      wacko
    • User profile image
      Grendelous
      THX! you may be a bit Wacko, but you are my hero!


    • User profile image
      FyinsFlip
      How close will this release of VisualStudio come to replacing the need for an editor like Dreamweaver?  I noticed features like showing your nested relationship at the bottom of the document is added; this has been part of Dreamweaver since 2003.

      I would love to only need one tool, currently I use both.  Best of luck VS team!

      2 years to fix VS from modifying HTML source.. wow, I really hope it does preserve HTML source from the designer to the text editor!

      I can't wait to use VS2005

      Sincerely,
      David Dimmer
      Director of Development
       
      Fyin, Inc.
      Local:  (414) 431-8674
      Toll free:  (800) 680-2326
      Fax:  (414) 431-8704
      W:  http://www.fyin.com            
      Complete Website Design and Interactive Programming     

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