Coffeehouse Thread

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it seems MS want to kills Adobe.

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  • User profile image
    leighsword

    i am just feeling MS want to kills Adobe when watching the Introducing Sparkle video.

    WPF and Metro , then Microsoft Expression.


  • User profile image
    blowdart

    The reaction to sparkle is funny. Even though slashdot linked to a decent article which has what I feel is a decent summary, pointing out that it's NOT a flash killer their article still calls it a flash killer.

    Whenever I read something that labels X as a Y killer I just think lazy journalism.

  • User profile image
    leighsword

    Adobe has released their products for Apple(Mac OS), that's why MS wants it die.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    leighsword wrote:
    Adobe has released their products for Apple(Mac OS), that's why MS wants it die.


    Adobe were making Mac software long before they ported to Windows. lf anything they are much less Mac-centric than ever

  • User profile image
    Dr. Shim

    leighsword wrote:
    i am just feeling MS want to kills Adobe when watching the Introducing Sparkle video.


    It's nice to see some finally decent functionality for designing desktop applications. That's it. Fin. End of story.

    Now I'm going to go back and create something dazzling with Flash. Sparkle can't even get near to what Flash 8 can do! If Microsoft wants to "kill" Flash, they'll have to start catering towards designers, the real way. I'm no designer, but I do hang with them quite a bit. None of them care! "Microsoft Foundation Expression what? Cute. Hey look, Flash 8 is released and a new upgrade for Illustrator! OMFG!"

    Once Microsoft stops saying silly things like "innovative features such as textures and blevels," one or two designers might just consider listening.

    Rant over. Anyone want a doughnut?

  • User profile image
    athan

    Dr. Shim wrote:
    Once Microsoft stops saying silly things like "innovative features such as textures and blevels," one or two designers might just consider listening.

    Sorry but why "silly"? Isn't true that all those years desktop applications were based on bitmaps and rastered controls?
    Flash is using a vector based GUI but is limited, slow and I've yet to see any rich desktop application built with it.

  • User profile image
    leighsword

    Dr. Shim wrote:
    leighsword wrote:i am just feeling MS want to kills Adobe when watching the Introducing Sparkle video.


    It's nice to see some finally decent functionality for designing desktop applications. That's it. Fin. End of story.

    Now I'm going to go back and create something dazzling with Flash. Sparkle can't even get near to what Flash 8 can do! If Microsoft wants to "kill" Flash, they'll have to start catering towards designers, the real way. I'm no designer, but I do hang with them quite a bit. None of them care! "Microsoft Foundation Expression what? Cute. Hey look, Flash 8 is released and a new upgrade for Illustrator! OMFG!"

    Once Microsoft stops saying silly things like "innovative features such as textures and blevels," one or two designers might just consider listening.

    Rant over. Anyone want a doughnut?

    whatever, Flash Action Script is suck, a lot of Desingers dislike(ever hate) it, we are only use the timeline to do what we want to.
    MS got .Net behind them, although .net is not for professional developers, but it's really good for newcomes just like desingers.
    if MS wants to kill Flash, that will be funny.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    leighsword wrote:

    MS got .Net behind them, although .net is not for professional developers


    BINGO!

    Smiley

  • User profile image
    Dr. Shim

    sakisp wrote:
    Sorry but why "silly"? Isn't true that all those years desktop applications were based on bitmaps and rastered controls?
    Flash is using a vector based GUI but is limited, slow and I've yet to see any rich desktop application built with it.


    You have a point. Sparkle looks great for designing a desktop UI, only for Windows applications.

    And yes, I can create desktop applications with Flash as well, and Flash 8 no longer uses only vector graphics, it has an awesome API for programatically drawing raster graphics.

    I suppose we'll just have to see how this pans out once it's released.

    If I can make a cool 2D game in it, I'll be impressed! Wink

    leighsword wrote:
    whatever, Flash Action Script is suck, a lot of Desingers dislike(ever hate) it, we are only use the timeline to do what we want to.


    Funny you should say that, as literally tones of designers use Flash every day. Please note, I'm not picking sides, but I hardly believe Sparkle is a 'Flash killer.' So many 'Flash killers' have come and gone.

    BTW, I can create very cool physics simulations, effects, games, Websites, e-mail clients, chat programs, video conferencing apps, and so on. Oh, and they'll run in any operating system. I can even make content for mobile devices, albiet that functionality is a bit limited (as is the mobile hardware).

    Excuse the ranting. Big Smile

  • User profile image
    matt0210

    sakisp wrote:
    Dr. Shim wrote:Once Microsoft stops saying silly things like "innovative features such as textures and blevels," one or two designers might just consider listening.

    Sorry but why "silly"? Isn't true that all those years desktop applications were based on bitmaps and rastered controls?
    Flash is using a vector based GUI but is limited, slow and I've yet to see any rich desktop application built with it.


    Silly because others (I'm not saying the M-word on this forum) have been doing vectors for a number of years. Just because MS is finally catching up doesn't mean it's something new and innovative. We all know how innovative MS is when it comes to non technical and non propriatary technical stuff.

    Sparke is a shell for programming designers, the people who like to do both. It's also tied to windows, making it far less appealing for web and compatibility.

    my 2 euro cents tell me, MS is trying to win back the API from the web applications. Giving people something to gob at will make them use the feature because they think it's cool. I'm curious to see how the real adobtion will be. I saw the north face demo. They'll never have that on the web. Maybe at an info stand or on a CD you can order. Flash is graphics fist, code second and for this reason alone it will always be superior to Sparke in the 'looks' department. MS is hoping to get developers to create Windows and IE only applications for once again snub out any competition. I did read somewhere, MS ported parts of avalon to MacOS and I also saw the virtual earth demo in the keynote. That code was server side, however, so I'd EXPECT it to run on something other that IE. ok, that was more like 3 cents.

  • User profile image
    Tensor

    blowdart wrote:
    leighsword wrote:
    MS got .Net behind them, although .net is not for professional developers


    BINGO!




    LOL it had to be in there somewhere Wink

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    I think the real power of .NET, WPF and Sparkle is proven by the fact that Sparkle itself is developed in .NET and WPF from the ground up. They even use Sparkle to modify Sparkle itself. Can you imagine the Flash IDE being developed in Flash itself? Just check out the C9 video.

  • User profile image
    reinux

    leighsword wrote:

    MS got .Net behind them, although .net is not for professional developers


    LOL

  • User profile image
    Sabot

    leighsword wrote:
    i am just feeling MS want to kills Adobe when watching the Introducing Sparkle video.

    WPF and Metro , then Microsoft Expression.




    Let me explain a bit out capitalism.

    There is no point in being the only product available to buy because this will actually kill the market.

    This is what many people in I.T. don't get.

    Microsoft is not interested in killing off competitors products.

    If a market has a strong leader, but also not a lot of opposition then this is an idea market for 'any' company to enter as the market has already proven there is money to be made.

    Microsoft has the resource to have a go at new markets. Healthy competition makes the quality of products better and drives down costs.

    The winner with Microsoft entering the Adobe/Macromedia market is the consumer as the Adobe & Macromedia are merging this leaves an obvious large void, so a sensible time to join the market.

    Microsoft is actually doing the consumer a favour, but Microsoft challenge must be to produce a good product in which to compete.

    So lets not all get upset about Microsoft again, lets leave that to the insular Linux fan boys that just want to make a loud noise

    Remember that Linux has also done consumers a favour as this has again made Microsoft more competitive with Windows and as such we will get a better product, but the shoe is on the other foot. Linux needs to keep up and according to Gartner it's five years away from getting the desktop right and this is a very long time.

  • User profile image
    Senkwe Chanda

    TommyCarlier wrote:
    I think the real power of .NET, WPF and Sparkle is proven by the fact that Sparkle itself is developed in .NET and WPF from the ground up. They even use Sparkle to modify Sparkle itself. Can you imagine the Flash IDE being developed in Flash itself? Just check out the C9 video.


    Yep, for me, it wasn't the stuff in the edit window that was appealing, it was the fact that the Sparkle designer itslef is a WPF application. I was skeptical that you could build an app like that in WPF. Sky's the limit from here on in.

  • User profile image
    reinux

    LeighSword:

    Manuel Clement says in the video:
    "It's kind of a new market in a way, it's not over something else. If you want to make web applications and whatever like at this point, there's neat solutions out there. For building real Win applications, for Win Vista and stuff, there's no other product at the moment, so..."

    Happy?

    My friends are absolutely going to love this by the way. Designers' pay around here in Vancouver is getting to be nearly as bad as programmers' despite the scarcity of jobs -- this project has the potential to really fix the market.

  • User profile image
    Dr. Shim

    Sabot wrote:
    Healthy competition makes the quality of products better and drives down costs.

    The winner with Microsoft entering the Adobe/Macromedia market is the consumer as the Adobe & Macromedia are merging this leaves an obvious large void, so a sensible time to join the market.


    I agree with you about competition. The more companies build a solution for a market, the more versetile and powerful the solution will become, that's a given. But I still don't see how Microsoft is entering the Adobe/Macromedia market!

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Sparkle all about designing a Graphical User Interface for software using Windows Presentation Foundation, and not for creating Rich Internet Applications or logos?

    ( Joke: ) How can I enter Worth1000 Photoshop contests with Sparkle? Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    Cairo

    You're right in saying "Microsoft is actually doing the consumer a favour, but Microsoft challenge must be to produce a good product in which to compete." A functioning market requires competition and choice, and customers win in functioning markets.

    However this statement:

    Sabot wrote:

    Microsoft is not interested in killing off competitors products.



    ... is not true. I'm sure you remember Microsoft execs saying things like "cut off their oxygen supply" and "farking kill them".


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