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Why Bill Hates Blu Ray.

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  • User profile image
    BenZila

    I thought this was intresting.

    http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1380&Itemid=2

    In an interview with a college newspaper, he said, "The key issue here is that the protection scheme under Blu-ray is very anti-consumer and there's not much visibility of that. The inconvenience is that the [movie] studios got too much protection at the expense of consumers and it won't work well on PCs. You won't be able to play movies and do software in a flexible way.

    He added, "It's not the physical format that we have the issue with, it's that the protection scheme on Blu is very anti-consumer. If [the Blu-ray group] would fix that one thing, you know, that'd be fine.

    "Understand that this is the last physical format there will ever be. Everything's going to be streamed directly or on a hard disk. So, in this way, it's even unclear how much this one counts."

    Here are some highlights from a good interview with The Daily Princetonian

    On his 1995 predictions in 'The Road Ahead'

    "A lot of the predictions [I made] were dead on in terms of talking about digital rights management, the arrival of broadband and things like that. Obviously if I wrote it again today, I could talk more about progress we've made in machine learning, speech recognition, vision, tablet computing and security.

    Also, things like social networking have grown a lot since ["The Road Ahead"] was written. I talk a little bit about it, but it's a clear phenomenon today, more than it was back then.

    On Microsoft's Mission

    "Part of the key values at Microsoft are about empowerment — getting computing out to everyone. Our employees love what we're doing and we're pretty neat. There's no one else who's got agreements with [developing] countries, doing donations like we are.

    "We believe that every kid should have access to a computer. First we go into the countries and get [computers and software] into the libraries — like we did in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Chile. We're doing that abroad in an increasing number of countries. Then we make sure it's in the schools. Then we make sure, eventually, it's cheap enough so everybody has it at home.

    "Information technology is a leveler. It takes any political repression that people try and makes that virtually impossible. It lets curious kids have way more material that even I had as a very privileged student some time ago."

    On Apple's Approach vs Microsoft's

    "here's room for many cool companies. The software Microsoft is doing is cool. What Apple's doing is cool. The competition amongst all these companies leads to great products.

    "We're a software company and if you want to do breakthroughs in artificial intelligence or new databases or speech recognition or tablet computing, there's a depth of software understanding and research at Microsoft you don't find anywhere else. We do research most other companies in the field don't. So, it's nothing to do with any particular company.

    "I, throughout the history of Microsoft, have gone out and talked about the software frontiers. So, you know, I'm not doing anything new or different than what I've done for 30 years."


  • User profile image
    Minh

    If Blu-Ray becomes the de facto standard, future Xbox 360 must carry it. This gives the price advantage back to the PS3.

  • User profile image
    Karim

    BenZila wrote:
    Bill Gates has branded Sony's Blu-ray next generation DVD standard as "very anti-consumer" adding that it' "won't work well on PCs".

    In an interview with a college newspaper, he said, "The key issue here is that the protection scheme under Blu-ray is very anti-consumer and there's not much visibility of that. The inconvenience is that the [movie] studios got too much protection at the expense of consumers and it won't work well on PCs. You won't be able to play movies and do software in a flexible way.

    He added, "It's not the physical format that we have the issue with, it's that the protection scheme on Blu is very anti-consumer. If [the Blu-ray group] would fix that one thing, you know, that'd be fine.


    At first I was like huh? wha?  anti-consumer?  But a quick Google search reveals Bill's bone of contention:

    http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?category=main&id=31074

    one the comments had these three good links to Ars Technica:

    http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/microsoft-hd-dvd.ars
    http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050929/sfth060.html?.v=32
    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050929-5366.html

    The basic idea, if I understand it, is that HD DVD will mandate "managed copy" (meaning you'll be able to make a limited number of copies of data, rip to your hard drive etc.), whereas Blu-ray will make only make managed copy optional.  (Meaning if the movie studio doesn't feel like it, they don't have to allow limited ripping of their content.  Which, in reality, means there ain't NO WAY Disney will let you copy their movies to your Media Center, make backup copies, copy to your iPod etc., 'cause that's just the way Disney is....)

    If I got this wrong somebody let me know... but from this it looks like I just became a fan of HD-DVD...

  • User profile image
    Karim

    News Flash!  Battle Heats Up!

    HP, which was firmly in the Blu-ray camp, has now seen the light, and is asking for Blu-ray to make "managed copy" mandatory.

    See http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=31111&category=main

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1873633,00.asp

  • User profile image
    Cider

    ...totall off-topicBut Bill LOVES Elisha...October 20, 2005 -- BILL Gates doesn't have much time for anything but computer wizardry, moneymaking — and Elisha Cuthbert (above). In the new issue of The New Yorker, Gates reveals that his one distraction from acquiring gazillions of dollars (and giving a lot away as well) is the Fox TV thriller "24." He watches it obsessively while on the treadmill — or at least he did until Cuthbert's scantily clad character disappeared this past season. He says it takes him two full days to recover after a viewing. Cuthbert played a (I need to watch my language) star in 2004's memorable "The Girl Next Door."

  • User profile image
    Deactivated User

    Comment removed at user's request.

  • User profile image
    scottmace20​02

    Blu Ray uses Java - could that be the reason?

    Scott Mace

  • User profile image
    BenZilla

    Blast from the past.

    RIP BenZila!


  • User profile image
    Minh

    Beer28 wrote:
    one word, libdvdcss, google it if you have to.

    None of this is going to matter. Thanks.
    Umm... HD DVDs & BlueRay DVDs won't be encoded w/ CSS, so libdvdcss is not gonna help you.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Beer28 wrote:
    Minh wrote:
    Beer28 wrote:one word, libdvdcss, google it if you have to.

    None of this is going to matter. Thanks.
    Umm... HD DVDs & BlueRay DVDs won't be encoded w/ CSS, so libdvdcss is not gonna help you.


    It's just precedent. The decryption algorythm has to be in the firmware. Spy the bus, and rip the decryption key.

    What if next-gen video players store the key on the microcontroller chip itself -- like what the Xbox 360 is reported to be doing (storying the key within the CPU itself). Then NOTHING crosses the memory bus. The cost of writing another DeCSS just went up a couple order of magnitudes.

    I'm afraid to say, maybe, just maybe, this time, they've got right. Maybe, we could start a distributed cracking project. DeCSS-HD @ Home?

  • User profile image
    Devils​Rejection

    Personally, I think media is DEAD.

    We need to spend more money, not on research for perpendicular hard drvie recording, different wavelength lasers to store more data, but on technology to build a infrastructure that removes the notion of hard copy.

  • User profile image
    Cannot​Resolve​Symbol

    It has to be stored somewhere... unless you are proposing that we store everything in volatile RAM on a huge distributed network.  That would be nuts.

  • User profile image
    leighsword

    BenZila wrote:
    On Microsoft's Mission

    "Part of the key values at Microsoft are about empowerment — getting computing out to everyone. Our employees love what we're doing and we're pretty neat. There's no one else who's got agreements with [developing] countries, doing donations like we are.
     

    BillG as a great manager doesn't always start with management, and great technology doesn't always start with technicians..."Great marketing doesn’t always start with marketers", quote from  Scoble's blog  The anti-marketing marketing.


  • User profile image
    Karim

    Beer28 wrote:
    It's just precedent. The decryption algorythm has to be in the firmware. Spy the bus, and rip the decryption key. I bet there will be libbluraydcrypt and libhddvdcrypt shortly after firmware releases in players.


    Oh here we go again.  How much do you wanna bet, Beer?

    Or when you say "I bet," does it really mean, "I hope?"

    Do you know anything about AACS?  At all?

    CSS was a symmetric (one-key) system.

    AACS -- which is what you'll see on HD-DVD and BluRay -- is asymmetric.  Multiple keys.

    First, "They" don't hand out device keys to just anyone. 

    Second, if you make HD DVD players, and you do get device keys, and you let them escape, the licensing agreement allows Them to extract enough fines from you to put you out of business.  Please pay $10 million dollars and go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

    Third, then what They do is add the compromised device keys to a key revocation list on all future HD discs.  So guess what?  Those keys that escaped?  They don't work with anything that is released AFTER the compromise.  The device key revocation scheme is ingenious -- they can revoke an entire manufacturer (e.g. all Samsung players), or a specific model of player, or even a single specific player if you piss Them off.  LOL

    I'm just scratching the surface here.  They've got stuff in there to prevent bit-for-bit copies.  You can't just "spy the bus" because the bus traffic itself is encrypted.

    I haven't even mentioned HDCP yet.

    Or BD+, which allows them to swap in A WHOLE NEW ENCRYPTION SCHEME at will.

    "DVD Jon" is not going to sit down with a can of Yoohoo one weekend and crack this nut for you.  It's just not going to happen.

    Ironic that you mentioned "videolan" libraries being used.  If you go over to the VideoLAN site, they are screaming that the French Government is threatening to make those libraries illegal:

    http://www.videolan.org/eucd.html

    Now if the EU is going to crack down on DVDs in Linux -- where the cat is already out of the bag, if you will -- what do you think they're going to do about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray?

    What They're implementing isn't perfect.  No doubt, one day some device keys will go missing, a Chinese HD DVD player manufacturer will suddenly go bankrupt, and the Linux weenies will claim that AACS has been cracked.  Then the next morning, someone in Hollywood will get up, a push a button and every single HD disc that comes out after that won't play on the "cracked" systems.

    Were you serious about betting, or were you just talking out of your a-- again?

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Beer28 wrote:
    Minh wrote:
    What if next-gen video players store the key on the microcontroller chip itself -- like what the Xbox 360 is reported to be doing (storying the key within the CPU itself). Then NOTHING crosses the memory bus. The cost of writing another DeCSS just went up a couple order of magnitudes.


    Copy the ROM on the MCU and emulate it with software.

    It doesn't matter if you can copy the ROM -- if you don't have access to the decrypting key -- which is entirely possible if it's burned into the CPU -- ala Xbox 360, what good is that to you?

  • User profile image
    Karim

    Beer28 wrote:
    Ah, you forget, there's china, and they have to make some too. Plus you could conceivably pull keys right off the bus as the bits are running by. If you do that on a very popular player, they won't revoke anything.


    You must have missed the part where I said the bus traffic was encrypted.

    I haven't forgotten about China -- I'm expecting some keys to go missing there, eventually, some day.  The absolute best you could end up with, from what little I understand about it, is a player that plays everything that has already come out -- but not titles that will come out NEXT WEEK or at any point in the future.  That kind of software (or device) wouldn't be very popular....

    Beer28 wrote:

    They said that with DVD too. They didn't revoke anything.


    This is different from DVD. 

    You should read some of the technical material on AACSLA and HDCP.  I'm not a fan of the RIAA or MPAA, but They seem to have thought things through this time.  I liked the tree structure They are using for device keys.  When They want to revoke, They can do it at a leaf node (single player), or its parent (presumably model), or its parent (presumably manufacturer).  For all I know They could revoke entire countries if they felt like it.  It's a clever hack.

  • User profile image
    Devils​Rejection

    So lets start taking bets, how long until the next gen formats get cracked!

    First of all.... let's wait for them to come out!

    Seocnd of all... let's wait for them to get to a price point where a player is less than 200 dollars, that seems to be what most consumers would pay for something like that. i mean look at it today, you buy a TV and you get a DVD Player free!

    Third... let's wait until media becomes cheap enough! because if i'm pirating a 20 dollar movie to put on a 10 dollar disc... i'll jsut watch it on my computer Tongue Out look at the market now, if your paying over a dollar a disc you are getting ripped the FCKGW off.

    Karim: You don't have to read any technical documentation, some countries economies are based purely off piracy, the xbox 360 will take it's time to get hacked because not everyone gives a rats a*s about the 360. lets be honest microsoft, for every 360 fanboy there are 2 times as many PS3 fan boys.

    Movies on the other hand... Everyone loves them, everyone plays them, everyone talks about them. It will be cracked, no question about it, the question is when, and will it be soon enough. DeCSS was great but when it came out THERE WERE NO FREAKING DVD BURNERS. And when they started coming out media again, expensive++.

    Everything is related, this is a wait and see game. My moneys on the Russians or the Swedes. You?

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Beer28 wrote:

    How can they expect every company to implement HD DVD on the exact same hardware, with the exact same components(especially if they are custom)?

    Not the same hardware. They could easily say "do whatever you want, but you gotta store they decrypting key on the CPU." I'm not entirely sure how HDCP work, but that's another level of encryption, right? Maybe Karim can jump in here.

    Beer28 wrote:

    BTW- it does RAM checksums from the CPU rom and hypervises the kernel. What a totally facist microchip, there is NO WAY I'm going to spend money on the crap-box 360. They may as well rent it to people, instead of having the façade of making you think you purchased one.
    You say that, but I'd be shocked if Sony doesn't protect their console with the same zeal.

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