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What's the biggest change in Visual C++ 2005

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  • User profile image
    leighsword

    To previous version, the biggest change of Visual C++ 2005 is its name, I am joking, I have not tried it yet.

    Today I found why the IDE of VB is better than VC++, and more featrues, because MS knew they don't need to treat a C++ developer like VB coders who even can not live without the IDE.

  • User profile image
    codeDebate

    Hey, VB developers are cool!  Cool

    MS can't see any potential in VC++ nor its developers; that's why they don't invest that much in it Tongue Out

    VB rocks...

  • User profile image
    leighsword

    skkipper wrote:

    Hey, VB developers are cool! 

    MS can't see any potential in VC++ nor its developers; that's why they don't invest that much in it

    VB rocks...


    if MS spends the money as much as VB on VC, then the terrible things will be happned, VB will disappear that's MS would not like to see.

    VC rocks...Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    athan

    skkipper wrote:

    Hey, VB developers are cool! 

    MS can't see any potential in VC++ nor its developers; that's why they don't invest that much in it

    VB rocks...


    The formula is quite simple...

    C++ =   hard to learn but powerfull  = a few developers
    VB =      easy but limited = many developers
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Many = More profit for MS.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot
  • User profile image
    Tonatiúh

    leighsword wrote:
    [...] Today I found why the IDE of VB is better than VC++, and more featrues, because MS knew they don't need to treat a C++ developer like VB coders who even can not live without the IDE.


    I would say that as absrtraction in a programming languages goes up, there is not need, neither it is reasonable, to stand up on coding without the help of an IDE... IDEs are interfases between the human being way of perceiving alghorithms and the language compiler way of translating it into machine op codes... The most freedom has the human mind to think in whole concepts, as oposed on thinking on the little steps which are necesary to carry any algorithm with a low level language; the more a developer will be able to concentrate in the whole estructure of an application... That is what IDEs are for... I think that the attitude of feeling better programmer because one is capable of dealing directly with the APIs or with the hardware itself, is like saying that a paleolithic artist is of best bred than, let us say: Leonardo d'Vinci or Van Gogh, because the former painted with bare mammoth bristles over the bare rocky walls of their cave... I think there will be not so long when artists would fully accept painting IDEs like that of Expresion Acrylic, as nowadays artists accept a fabric frame, several tubes of colored oil mixture and an assortment of brushes... And people will accept, love and pay their works... And future museums of art will have big screens conected to computers to exhibit the remarkable electronic artworks... Thinking in this way, I feel in advance a lot of pity because the future poor art thieves.

    Tonatiúh

  • User profile image
    martin_lovi​ck

    "C++ =   hard to learn but powerfull  = a few developers
    VB =      easy but limited = many developers"

    that was one of the ideas behind c# wasnt it? c++ for the masses?

    c# is good

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Sven Groot wrote:


    Secure String functions FTW Smiley

  • User profile image
    WinForm

    yes, thats true C++ is powerfull and VB is limited.. I am already C++ fan. But. .NET cracking VB's limitations if a developer can use advancements in .NET

    Forever .NET

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    Wil

    Do you mean what's the biggest change from the beta, or the biggest change from previous releases?

    The biggest change in Visual C++ 8.0 (is that the name for it???) from "classic" VC++ is a whole new syntax for managed code.  You can still use ANSI C++ for unmanaged code, of course, but in the first version of Visual Studio .NET a very strange-looking syntax was introduced for managed code.  That "old" syntax (consisting of extensions to ANSI C++ that conformed with the ANSI standard of double underscores for vendor-specific extensions) will still work, but only if you set a certain compiler flag, since the default in VS2005 is to use a whole new syntax.  In fact, the new syntax for managed code does not conform to the ANSI standard for how to extend C++, so it is being introduced as a whole new computer language, called C++/CLI.  So that certainly is the biggest change from previous releases!

  • User profile image
    Charles

    I think I'm going to have to ask the C++ team to answer this question for an upcoming Going Deep interview. There are MANY advancements to C++ this go round and many of them aren't necessarily at the language level... Please stay tuned for another great conversation with Kang Su Gatlin and members of the C++ development team (developers and architects alike).

    C (++)

  • User profile image
    Tonatiúh

    WinForm wrote:
    yes, thats true C++ is powerfull and VB is limited.. I am already C++ fan. But. .NET cracking VB's limitations if a developer can use advancements in .NET

    Forever .NET


    .NET is taking Visual Basic into an utterly new and higher level of abstraction... So it is now capable of making good use, without resource administration effort and, if any, a bit of knowledge about, of every resource the NET. Framework have made available to it... And to C#, C++, J#, ASP and T-SQL... Furthermore, if you get aware of what Singularity would become, you will become owning a very wide view of what is going to happen in the near future with that kind of programming languages abstraction steady rising.

    Tonatiúh

    EDIT: Link added.

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    PerfectPhase
  • User profile image
    leighsword

    Wil wrote:
    Do you mean what's the biggest change from the beta, or the biggest change from previous releases?

    The biggest change in Visual C++ 8.0 (is that the name for it???) from "classic" VC++ is a whole new syntax for managed code.  You can still use ANSI C++ for unmanaged code, of course, but in the first version of Visual Studio .NET a very strange-looking syntax was introduced for managed code.  That "old" syntax (consisting of extensions to ANSI C++ that conformed with the ANSI standard of double underscores for vendor-specific extensions) will still work, but only if you set a certain compiler flag, since the default in VS2005 is to use a whole new syntax.  In fact, the new syntax for managed code does not conform to the ANSI standard for how to extend C++, so it is being introduced as a whole new computer language, called C++/CLI.  So that certainly is the biggest change from previous releases!

    The breaking change is C++/CLI which is definely better than the MC++(Managed Extensions for C++), but I got question 1), why I need to use it? And question 2), is C++/CLI 's compiled code faster than that generating code of C# or VB.NET? if I want to programming mangaged code, I will choice C# which is more easier to use, if I want programming mixed code(mix up native and managed), I will choice C# with COM interop, I think VC++ is good at native code, not managed code.

  • User profile image
    Tonatiúh

    leighsword wrote:
    [...] The breaking change is C++/CLI which is definely better than the MC++(Managed Extensions for C++), but I got question 1), why I need to use it? And question 2), is C++/CLI 's compiled code faster than that generating code of C# or VB.NET? if I want to programming mangaged code, I will choice C# which is more easier to use, if I want programming mixed code(mix up native and managed), I will choice C# with COM interop, I think VC++ is good at native code, not managed code.


    As long as I have understood from the documentation of the Microsoft .NET approach, for a multi-language integrated development and production platform; I would say that, though there are differences in the compiled MSIL resulting from each language whose compilers are, or will be, supported by the CLR; in the overall, the performance of the same algorithm been programmed in several different of those languages, would be achieved almost with the same scores (never I personally have tested this)...

    But, besides the above opinion, yet I can not grasp why nowadays developers are so much concerned with speed, when in many applications I have seen, matters as user interfase, functionality, user friendiness and intuitive operational scheme are almost left to "the way things come up"... Is speed everything in modern applications?

    Tonatiúh

  • User profile image
    leighsword

    Tonatiúh wrote:
    leighsword wrote:[...] The breaking change is C++/CLI which is definely better than the MC++(Managed Extensions for C++), but I got question 1), why I need to use it? And question 2), is C++/CLI 's compiled code faster than that generating code of C# or VB.NET? if I want to programming mangaged code, I will choice C# which is more easier to use, if I want programming mixed code(mix up native and managed), I will choice C# with COM interop, I think VC++ is good at native code, not managed code.


    As long as I have understood from the documentation of the Microsoft .NET approach, for a multi-language integrated development and production platform; I would say that, though there are differences in the compiled MSIL resulting from each language whose compilers are, or will be, supported by the CLR; in the overall, the performance of the same algorithm been programmed in several different of those languages, would be achieved almost with the same scores (never I personally have tested this)...

    But, besides the above opinion, yet I can not grasp why nowadays developers are so much concerned with speed, when in many applications I have seen, matters as user interfase, functionality, user friendiness and intuitive operational scheme are almost left to "the way things come up"... Is speed everything in modern applications?

    Tonatiúh

    we are developers, not a UI designer or a requirement analyst, and customers may help you to improve UI, and tell you what they want for increase the functionality of your application.
    how to measure a developer's abililty, and which algorithm is a better one?I think the speed is a main measure of factor.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Speed, memory efficiency, security, reliability, maintainability, development time, I can think of a number of factors that can be used to evaluate a piece of code, and some are mutually exclusive. While .Net may give you a small hit on the first two, it gives you a tremendous boost on all the other ones.

    As for C++/CLI... The VC team claims that the C++/CLI compiler has the most advanced optimizer of all the .Net compilers. It's the only compiler that can produce mixed-mode (managed and native) assemblies, which enables you to implement some time-critical algorithm in native code and all the rest in managed code, inside the same assembly, without the performance overhead of COM Interop or PInvoke. C++/CLI is also a great tool if you have something that must be C++ (for instance because it must expose a native interface) yet must talk to managed code, it's much easier than COM Interop (see C9Music for an example, the WMP and Winamp plugins are written in C++/CLI).

    Also, the C++/CLI linker is the only linker that can use .Net modules. This means that C++/CLI is the only environment that can mix classes from different languages (VB, C#, etc.) in the same assembly.

    What's also sure to be an advantage is the fact that C++ templates and .Net generics can interoperate in C++/CLI, so you get the flexibility and interoperability of .Net generics combined with the turing-complete power of C++ templates.

  • User profile image
    Tonatiúh

    leighsword wrote:
    [...] we are developers, not a UI designer or a requirement analyst, and customers may help you to improve UI, and tell you what they want for increase the functionality of your application. [...]


    Leigh Sword...

    Before I became a computer programmer in 1973, I learned and exercised as student and/or profesional, the activities whose follows (in the order shown): Advertising draughtsman and painting artist (age 14, 1959),  technical draughtsman (age 18, 1963), statistical draftsman (age 20, 1965), graphic designer, cartoonist and picture drawghtsman (age 21, 1966), audio-visual learning aids resources technician (age 22, 1967), mechanics technical dratftsman and industrial designer (age 28, 1973)...

    This last date, at the same company and because I worked there as costs analyst draftsman, I became programmer when I got onto the need for developing an application for calculating cones for heavy thermodynamic equipment, been cuted from titanium clad stainless steel plates imported from Germany (a very expensive kind of stuff), over an old desktop HP with an small screen with only three rows of about 20 characters long, where the x, y and z numeric registers was shown and a tiny card the size of a nowadays credit card as recording mean, with 1,024 algorithm "steps" as storage capacity, where the programm have been inputted "step by step" through the keyboard programming functions keys... Five years later (1978), I encountered my self working at a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I desktop, running primer MS-DOS and interpreted MS-Basic... One year later, I was developing my third serious application, a non general invoicing system, in which I have spent a lot of effort and time, dealing with the procedures (alas subroutines then) which managed the best reasonable UI I could depict over a black screen of 25 rows 80 characters long each, with the only help of the MS-Basic's PRINT statement; that is, character by character... For my client, his system operator and my self, such an achievement was a success...

    But four years before, while employed as developer by a software provider (1982), him have made a deal with that client of me, with who I have left the bussiness relatinship because some personal issues I had in my family... Such a deal was for enhancing, with a big set of new faetures, the aforementioned application and my boss have given to me such a task... He criticized me a lot because the way I have solved the first version of the application, pointing me that the effort and time I have spent in programming the UI (if one could think any UI could be built over a computer with not graphic capabilities at all) was worthless... His argument was: "I am a programmer not a designer and as such I program in an straight way, just do the same"... I saw it as more kind of an arbitrary order than a reasonable way for a development team leader (he loved to be called that way) to easing any kind of agreement...

    At the end and keeping things the way I have ever done, I reached a fine achievement: The application with every feature requested by the client, loaded over a model III desktop (two models ahead the one I have designed my first approach for), running faster, realiably and steadiest its first version have ever performed... About the development time you ask? Well, I cuted by almost a 20% that one forescasted for my boss, if I worked in the straight way he loved... What happened there? Well, yet about thirty six months after, I had not any problem in grasping again what I have done the first time, though that application, as any other developed in interpreted MS-Basic, was a top-down thread of instructions, many times several of these packed in a single line; with very few comments (as comments in an interpreted environment costed RAM: In that model I had 64 KB available)... It was eassy for me and my oldest son to isolate every subroutine and to build an overall quick flow diagram to allot the work amongst boot of us (my son have helped me in developing the first version as well, when him was 13 years old)... Client, client operator, boss, son and my self were each one happy... I have applied a little cosmetic to the UI, taking advantage of four years working thoroughly in mastering MS-DOS secrets, changed the disk access approach and the "database" scheme (several fixed lenght fielded ASCII files), changed the indexing algorithm, threw away the invoices key searching algorithm, and putted in its place my most recent programmer offspring, though certainly one borrowed from a book: The binary search algorithm... And voila! Magic worked!... What all of us loved, was precisely the UI, though only two of they were in the secret about how it was achieved (my boss never wanted to take a look to the code).

    As you may see in this long and indeed full of proud story, not every Niner are just a developer... Some are designers as Jamie, some are testers as Loadsgood... And some are a mess as I my self am.

    Tonatiúh

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