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MS: Why do you treat students like criminals?

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  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Yes, flamebaiting time! Big Smile

    I recently had to re-install my Visual Studio 2003 Academic Edition again, unlike Professional or Enterprise, the Academic version requires activation, when I re-installed it wanted me to re-activate, which failed (well duh, after re-installing it more than 6 times).

    So then I had to phone up the Activation hotline and spend 5 minutes on the phone, typing in the keys and getting forwarded to someone who can't speak english fluently.

    ...then I'm told to my face words to the effect that I'm a criminal (despite acting in full compliance of UK laws)

    So questions:

    a) How come only the Academic edition has activation? Does Microsoft really think so low of us students that we'd pass the discs around even though it's only £60? Surely the Enterprise edition is likely to be pirated more often
    b) Why should my opinion of Microsoft in this respect be held any higher than it is right now? (which isn't very high)
    c) Where can I get a VLK for VS2003 Academic so I don't need to activate whenever I rebuild/reformat?
    d) Why do I get the feeling MS will kill of the activation servers in the future and prevent anyone from using products that required it?

  • User profile image
    Flip

    One word, DON'T!!!!!!!!

     

    I am using Eclipse during my day gig, and man, I can't begin to start describing how much I hate this piece of crap.  It's slow, the keystrokes are no where near intuitive (WTF is with ALT+SHIFT+Q + C for the console, ALT+SHIFT+Q + P to get to package hierarchy) and the "add ins" are terribly implemented!  The SVN addin we're using cannot talk to Eclipse to properly talk to each other, and worse, the keystrokes are totally inept with the addins. :<

    I work with VS at home, and MAN, it's soooo much nicer!  And the best thing is, it works!  Fancy that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    W3bbo wrote:

    ...then I'm told to my face words to the effect that I'm a criminal (despite acting in full compliance of UK laws)


    How were you told that?

    W3bbo wrote:

    So questions:

    a) How come only the Academic edition has activation? Does Microsoft really think so low of us students that we'd pass the discs around even though it's only £60? Surely the Enterprise edition is likely to be pirated more often


    Probably because it is more accessible. After all more students exist and have financial assistance issues than corporate people that have access to a actual disk. More corporations (mine included) have software distribution software, you never see a disk.

    W3bbo wrote:

    b) Why should my opinion of Microsoft in this respect be held any higher than it is right now? (which isn't very high)


    Why shouldn't it?

    W3bbo wrote:

    d) Why do I get the feeling MS will kill of the activation servers in the future and prevent anyone from using products that required it?


    Because they probably wont support it at that time. The lifecycle will expire so if it breaks you just upgrade or contact a third party support vendor.

  • User profile image
    Detroit Muscle

    I'm going to turn on the software activation feature in my code via satellite. Every MS employee who uses our software and doesn't know the activation code will be walking home.

  • User profile image
    Jorgie

    "Does Microsoft really think so low of us students that we'd pass the discs around even though it's only £60?"

    Yes, and they are correct as far as I can tell. I work at a university and hear the students talk about copying each others software all the time. All you have to do is sit on the computer side of the university bookstore for 5 minutes and you can hear at least one student say 'I pay half and you can burn me a copy.'  And they are not talking about music, they are talking about MS Office or Photo Shop. Both of which they already get for aroun 15% of the retail price (~ $60 USD).

    Jorgie

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Jorgie wrote:
    "Does Microsoft really think so low of us students that we'd pass the discs around even though it's only £60?"

    The teacher of the programming course handed out VC6 Pro CDs in my first year. Perplexed

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Cybermagellan wrote:
    W3bbo wrote:
    ...then I'm told to my face words to the effect that I'm a criminal (despite acting in full compliance of UK laws)


    How were you told that?


    It's a long and complicated story.

    Cybermagellan wrote:


    W3bbo wrote:
    So questions:

    a) How come only the Academic edition has activation? Does Microsoft really think so low of us students that we'd pass the discs around even though it's only £60? Surely the Enterprise edition is likely to be pirated more often


    Probably because it is more accessible. After all more students exist and have financial assistance issues than corporate people that have access to a actual disk. More corporations (mine included) have software distribution software, you never see a disk.


    Well yeah, you and Jorgie are both correct, but still if people are going to copy it they'll find a way anyway, there's probably a backdoor lurking around.

    So... Charles, Adam, Scoble, etc... can you make some internal enquiries for me? Big Smile

    Cybermagellan wrote:


    W3bbo wrote:
    b) Why should my opinion of Microsoft in this respect be held any higher than it is right now? (which isn't very high)


    Why shouldn't it?


    Exactly Smiley

    Cybermagellan wrote:


    W3bbo wrote:
    d) Why do I get the feeling MS will kill of the activation servers in the future and prevent anyone from using products that required it?


    Because they probably wont support it at that time. The lifecycle will expire so if it breaks you just upgrade or contact a third party support vendor.


    Which is very unethical, it's very similar to the "you can't use old cars/equipment" laws in Japan, even if the old car works perfectly.

    Visual Studio suits me fine and I am going to be annoyed as hell if Microsoft flips the switch on the activation servers to prevent me from using software I've paid for. (Come to think about it, that's probably illegal).

    So can anyone email me a VLK? If anyone wants/needs proof that I own a legit VS2003 installation I can provide it.

  • User profile image
    Angus

    I think that Microsoft have good cause to be cautious of students. I suppose I know what you are talking of, Enterprise would be much more profitable to copy, but, students tend to be the people who need the software and don't have the money, so it is clear that they are the ones who might have to seek "alternative methods" in an attempt to get the software.

    Maybe Microsoft should add the activation to the other versions, and I can understand that the problem is very annoying. There must be a better way to activate software on more than one computer, but for just one person, but I suppose the intrinsic behavior that humans have, probably means that they wil always do whta it takes to get free copies of software, or help others do so.

    Even if a finger-print was needed to activate, it would most likely mean that the pirate would just go to their friends and family and activate it there for them to use, but I suppose if a fingerprint was needed to activate the software every time it was opened, it might be a bit more secure. I mean the software could be installed on other computers illegally, but the original owner would have to go around to the people's homes who he/she had givgen it to every time they wanted to use it.

    That isn't a great idea, but it is fairly simple to see that a better way is needed for these circumstances, also it is fairly simple to see why Microsoft have chosen just the Academic version to check.

    Angus Higgins

  • User profile image
    Ion Todirel

    Jorgie wrote:
    "Does Microsoft really think so low of us students that we'd pass the discs around even though it's only £60?"

    Yes, and they are correct as far as I can tell. I work at a university and hear the students talk about copying each others software all the time. All you have to do is sit on the computer side of the university bookstore for 5 minutes and you can hear at least one student say 'I pay half and you can burn me a copy.'  And they are not talking about music, they are talking about MS Office or Photo Shop. Both of which they already get for aroun 15% of the retail price (~ $60 USD).

    Jorgie


    here we are copying for free Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    Angus

    W3bbo wrote:

    Which is very unethical, it's very similar to the "you can't use old cars/equipment" laws in Japan, even if the old car works perfectly.


    Not so, one can purchase any of the equiptment that is older than 5 years so long as the vendor has had an official saftey check on the item, this has been documented on a few blogs such as Engadget etc. if I remember correctly.

    Angus Higgins

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    W3bbo wrote:



    Cybermagellan wrote:

    W3bbo wrote:
    d) Why do I get the feeling MS will kill of the activation servers in the future and prevent anyone from using products that required it?


    Because they probably wont support it at that time. The lifecycle will expire so if it breaks you just upgrade or contact a third party support vendor.


    Which is very unethical, it's very similar to the "you can't use old cars/equipment" laws in Japan, even if the old car works perfectly.

    Visual Studio suits me fine and I am going to be annoyed as hell if Microsoft flips the switch on the activation servers to prevent me from using software I've paid for. (Come to think about it, that's probably illegal).

    So can anyone email me a VLK? If anyone wants/needs proof that I own a legit VS2003 installation I can provide it.


    Well when do you think they'll do it? 2007, 2015, 2020? Are you going to be using Visual Studio 2003 in 2010? Why should Microsoft Support you with that? It's lifecycles and business needs...W3bbo, not everyone is going to make you happy in life.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Cybermagellan wrote:
    Well when do you think they'll do it? 2007, 2015, 2020? Are you going to be using Visual Studio 2003 in 2010? Why should Microsoft Support you with that? It's lifecycles and business needs...W3bbo, not everyone is going to make you happy in life.


    It's the principle, I paid for a software licence and the physical media, do I not have a right to use the software when/as/how I wish (so long as it complies with UK software/copyright laws and to a lesser extent, the EULA).

    To my knowledge, the EULA makes no mention of Microsoft pulling the plug on the activation servers, so I guess I could file a lawsuit if they ever did. (Not that I could afford it or anything).

    Anyway, I just tried activating again now, and amazingly it works now.

    But still, if anyone has a VLK for VS2003 Academic, please let me know.

  • User profile image
    julianbenja​min

    Flip wrote:

    One word, DON'T!!!!!!!!

     

    I am using Eclipse during my day gig, and man, I can't begin to start describing how much I hate this piece of crap.  It's slow, the keystrokes are no where near intuitive (WTF is with ALT+SHIFT+Q + C for the console, ALT+SHIFT+Q + P to get to package hierarchy) and the "add ins" are terribly implemented!  The SVN addin we're using cannot talk to Eclipse to properly talk to each other, and worse, the keystrokes are totally inept with the addins. :<

    I work with VS at home, and MAN, it's soooo much nicer!  And the best thing is, it works!  Fancy that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    I think Eclipse is great as an IDE, but not for targeting .NET.  I myself use VS 2003 and 2005 for the various .NET applications, but I prefer Eclipse when doing Java/JSP and PHP (maintaining older applications) over any of the commercial stuff (JBuilder, WebSphere, Java Studio).  Compared to the others, Eclipse is fast, very customizable, and just works.  And I haven't used the SVN addin, but any addins I have downloaded have always worked as they said they would. (Except for the C# addin, I prefer VS over Eclipse + C#).

  • User profile image
    Cider

    Did you not get a copy of Visual Studio 2005 Pro from attending one of the launch things?  I did.

  • User profile image
    julianbenja​min

    W3bbo wrote:


    But still, if anyone has a VLK for VS2003 Academic, please let me know.


    And you wonder why Microsoft treats students as criminals?

  • User profile image
    KevinB

    I'm very sorry,

    but I disagree with nearly everything that has been said here. I think MS treat studens extremely well. There are student and teacher editions of everything for knock down prices and the icing on the cake for me is the Academic Alliance programme that they run with a large number of Universities.

    You may want to see if your school offers it w3bbo. If you don;t know what it is it gives you access to basically all MS software including most beta products, all Server OS'es etc and all with a very unrestrictive license.

    Here is a link about it.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/academic/

    The Univserity I am attending offer it and I have aviled of it a few times. You get a copy of the disc and the key to unlock it. It is nice having licensed software Smiley .


    Kevin

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Cider wrote:
    Did you not get a copy of Visual Studio 2005 Pro from attending one of the launch things?  I did.


    VS2005 Pro != VS2003, I still need to target .NET1.1, and I prefer the way VS2003 handles ASP.NET projects.


    julianbenjamin wrote:
    W3bbo wrote:

    But still, if anyone has a VLK for VS2003 Academic, please let me know.


    And you wonder why Microsoft treats students as criminals?


    Since when does using a VLK qualify me as being a "criminal"?

  • User profile image
    irascian

    W3bbo wrote:


    It's the principle, I paid for a software licence and the physical media, do I not have a right to use the software when/as/how I wish (so long as it complies with UK software/copyright laws and to a lesser extent, the EULA).



    Not much sympathy here I'm afraid. Activation sucks but Microsoft are by far and away the best at sorting things out from my experiences.

    I'm going to make a sweeping statement here: "Students are by far the biggest bootleggers infringers of copyright".  They get the software at dramatically reduced "academic" prices and yet they STILL copy it for whatever friends and family want it. Activation is a pain for all of us, but there are times when it's justified. When you've paid £500 for an Adobe product, spent hours and hours trying to convince them you have a legitimate right to install the product which won't activate, only to eventually give up then I might have more sympathy. I've had to contact MacroMedia, Adobe and Microsoft over activation issues - Microsoft were the only ones to sound even vaguely apologetic and to sort things out with a single phone call.

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