Coffeehouse Thread

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How on10.net wasn't made...

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  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    This is BS. So why isn't Microsoft showing how on10.net was made with Expression Web Designer? Easy answer "It wasn't". We seen Sparkle in Beta and seen some of what it can do while it was "in lab" however EWD doesn't even show up on the blip?

    I haven't even used/seen on10.net for this fact. "Oooo, wow another website." end of story.

    I'm starting to thing EWD is vaporware.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    You want them to build a site that's to go live in 1 month with beta software?

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    Minh wrote:
    You want them to build a site that's to go live in 1 month with beta software?


    Depends on if it's good beta software or crap beta software.

    But you have to have the software for it to matter in the first place.

  • User profile image
    Rowan

    Expression Web Designer is just another WYSIWYG editor that will create more trouble than it solves. I wouldn't use any WYSIWYG editor for any purpose at all, the mess and confusion they can cause is not worth it, especially if you already know how to write code and manage files properly.

    Why didn't the 10 team use it? Because they're professionals.

  • User profile image
    rjdohnert

    Personally I think the whole Expression line will bare the same fortune as Microsofts digital imaging software.   Macromedia already has the lead and its going to be tough for Microsoft to get Macromedia users to drop it.  If they put it on the Mac and start getting some case studies up and showcase actual content created with the Expression line it might work out for them.

  • User profile image
    tuck

    Rowan said:
    "I wouldn't use any WYSIWYG editor for any purpose at all, the mess and confusion they can cause is not worth it, especially if you already know how to write code and manage files properly."


    Remember: People use WYSIWYG tools everyday for a lot of different purposes, e.g. Word, Acrobat, Powerpoint, Publisher, but also Frontpage. If your goal is to communicate or cooperate, the message is important, and the form of the message is important, but it's actual physical representation may not be.


    Also, as a seasoned programmer I'm not particularly font of people referring to HTML as "code".

  • User profile image
    Rowan

    tuck wrote:
    Rowan said:
    "I wouldn't use any WYSIWYG editor for any purpose at all, the mess and confusion they can cause is not worth it, especially if you already know how to write code and manage files properly."


    Remember: People use WYSIWYG tools everyday for a lot of different purposes, e.g. Word, Acrobat, Powerpoint, Publisher, but also Frontpage. If your goal is to communicate or cooperate, the message is important, and the form of the message is important, but it's actual physical representation may not be..


    Sorry, what I meant was for web editors, and the purposes being writing raw code, managing files, using design mode etc.

    "Also, as a seasoned programmer I'm not particularly fond of people referring to HTML as "code"

    Web design software supports more than just HTML.

  • User profile image
    sbc

    I wonder what the markup generated will be like? Hopefully not as bad as what iWeb generates.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    sbc wrote:
    I wonder what the markup generated will be like? Hopefully not as bad as what iWeb generates.


    Or even FrontPage.

    Let's hope it's on-par with Dreamweaver 8 or better.

  • User profile image
    sbc

    W3bbo wrote:
    sbc wrote:I wonder what the markup generated will be like? Hopefully not as bad as what iWeb generates.


    Or even FrontPage.

    Let's hope it's on-par with Dreamweaver 8 or better.

    FrontPage markup is bad, but I don't think it is as bad as iWeb's.

    Having read a few sites on the issue, many people dislike the markup. Of course there are some that don't seem to care (Apple fans mostly) - excuses include: 'it's a version 1.0 product', 'not targetted at professional web developers' and 'it is not fair to compare it to a version 8.0 product'.

    Hopefully Apple will get the message and iWeb 2.0 (or even better iWeb 1.1) will actually generate better markup. Not that I use iWeb, or even a Mac.

    Well, NVU is a 1.0 product and it generates better code (code formatting is poor though - too many line breaks, colour formatting needs work) and is free.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    How about this monstrocity?

  • User profile image
    AdamKinney

    Cybermagellan wrote:
    This is BS. So why isn't Microsoft showing how on10.net was made with Expression Web Designer? Easy answer "It wasn't". We seen Sparkle in Beta and seen some of what it can do while it was "in lab" however EWD doesn't even show up on the blip?

    I haven't even used/seen on10.net for this fact. "Oooo, wow another website." end of story.

    I'm starting to thing EWD is vaporware.


    I think its funny that you refer to us, Jeff Sandquist's team, the team the dev team that works on channel9, as Microsoft.  As if once again its a giant monolith.  Yes we do represent Microsoft.  It just sounded funny to hear that in the Coffeehouse.

    No we didn't use EWD, its not ready.  And as the UI guy, I can tell you that almost all of that html is written out in the render method of custom controls.  Seriously I have not seen EWD, so I can't say much, except that I know its under development.

    Give it some time Cyber, we may have an episode in the future that even you will enjoy Smiley

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    AdamKinney wrote:

    I think its funny that you refer to us, Jeff Sandquist's team, the team the dev team that works on channel9, as Microsoft.  As if once again its a giant monolith.  Yes we do represent Microsoft.  It just sounded funny to hear that in the Coffeehouse.


    Yeah I know. Considering what the purpose of C9 is I would assume you would have been more than happy to show yourselves using the product. However notice next comment...

    AdamKinney wrote:
    No we didn't use EWD, its not ready.  And as the UI guy, I can tell you that almost all of that html is written out in the render method of custom controls.  Seriously I have not seen EWD, so I can't say much, except that I know its under development.

    Give it some time Cyber, we may have an episode in the future that even you will enjoy 


    Is this like Charles "Keep Posting" Comment?

    Adam maybe people at Microsoft don't understand this... Microsoft has been waiting for how many years to get any new products (Shy of Visual Studio 2003/2005 and Office 2003)? So now when you say "Give it some time", what is it another 4 years?

    I realize that YOU don't have anything to do with the decisions that are made, so this isn't a personal attack on you at all. Maybe I am getting upset because I really like using the new products and want to see/use them. However Microsofts stance on the OS is like ours (my company) with the Internet...when you think you own it all others get closer to you.

    "No we didn't use EWD, its not ready." - So considering that I'm assuming it's crap (Just making a point). If EVD and EID are out and in Beta and this isn't then one can only assume that team is just putzing around OR this is a low priority...in that case ditch it other solutions have arrived, the train left and you missed it.

    Like I said Adam it isn't against you...just something that's bothering me lately.

  • User profile image
    AdamKinney

    "Give it some time" - I meant the content of the website.

    ""No we didn't use EWD, its not ready." - So considering that I'm assuming it's crap" -  Seriously, because its not available does not mean its crap.  I'm really excited to see it, but I haven't yet.  I'll make sure to talk more about it as soon as I have something to say.

  • User profile image
    LaBomba

    Geez Cyber...

    leave poor soft-spoken adam kinney alone.

    Seriously though kinney you need to turn up the volume just a little bit when you speak on camera.

    you're barely registering.

    Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB

    Adam Kinney in conversation 15-20dB

    Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    AdamKinney

    This is true.  My voice is bit low in some sense, kind of like the alligator rumble that gets so low it doesn't carry to our human ears.  I do have a projection voice for speaking, but that's something I have to turn on.  And at the time of the video, my energy was close to depletion and I was in conservation mode Smiley

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