Coffeehouse Thread

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Firefox copies IE

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  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    http://bink.nu/?ArticleID=2416

    I didn't think I'd see Firefox copy IE until after Longhorn was out...

  • User profile image
    warren

    Shining Arcanine wrote:
    http://bink.nu/?ArticleID=2416

    I didn't think I'd see Firefox copy IE until after Longhorn was out...


    Typical.  Last year, shortly after Office 2003 beta screenshots were circulating around the Internet, the Mozilla mail client (Thunderbird) magically acquired the same three horizintal pane mail-reading view that was new to Outlook 2003.


  • User profile image
    sbc

    They only have that in the nightly builds AFAIK. What's confusing is that you get a branch and a trunk build - not sure which one this is on. Also find as you type will be changed to be a toolbar as well. There should still be an option to use either method of display (icon in bottom left corner, or notification toolbar).

    I'm sure Microsoft has copied many UI ideas from other companies (like Apple). Perhaps there may even be examples of this idea in some share/freeware application - I think MyIE2 may an example - but the only way to know would be to install a version that was out before we had screenshots of it in IE.

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    I presume you're referring to the idea to block popups.  Sorry, but that idea has been around for a LONG time, well before Microsoft came up with the "original idea" (to quote the IEBlog) of blocking popups.  Some software that has blocked popups for a while (some by default:)

    Google IE toolbar
    Yahoo IE toolbar
    Mozilla
    Firefox

    Granted, the GUI is similar.

  • User profile image
    Blue​Firehawk02

    He's talking about the "pop-down" type status tip that peaks out from the Tool bar. GUI-wise, it's a copy... but everyone copies microsoft's GUI styles... A lot of the time, they define the standard in GUI design. Point in case, owner drawn menus with icons, etc.

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    The status tip is a good idea.  The "popup-blocked" icon in Firefox is easily missed (similar to IE's "cookie blocked" eyeball icon.)  The toolbar approach - 1536 blocked - is also easily missed, and takes up valuable screen space in the icon area.

    Kudos to the IE/GUI team!

  • User profile image
    jamie

    the interface ( icons/colours only)  in that browser look horrific

    Netscapes "Modern" theme - which i still didnt like - was at least done by a company with some experience

    why cant they change the paradigm? find a better way?
    use icons that dont look like icons? make an all text interface option? make a rocket launch to go ahead - and parachute down to close..

    bad examples perhaps.. but the point is ANYTHING - why not?

    why copy MS forever over and over - with usability 3 to 8 YEARS behind ( more linux than the browsers fault)  and graphics that look like OS2 by Google

    open source would be alot more dangerous if they took risks ( like ms is taking on Longhorn)

    * i am aware FF has lots of new features but it's all about "the stack" right?

    so.. given a choice between:

    Open Stack and MS Stack

    where one is free and open - and one is proprietary and paid... but free and open is basically pretty lame usability refineness wise... and corp / paid offers the slickest environment - and even tries to be open ( source forge stuff, channel nine, VB basic editions etc) - it all boils down to:

    do you want your computer to run pretty much everything, look great and automate alot of stuff for you?  would you pay extra for that?

    or do you want to control everything yourself - and build your own pieced together interfaces..for free?


    me?  i want more freedom and a new consumer empowerment mission statement from MS - but ya - Ill pay for the best user implimentaion everytime



  • User profile image
    Bogusrabin

    jamie wrote:
    do you want your computer to run pretty much everything, look great and automate alot of stuff for you?  would you pay extra for that?


    Like Windows?

    jamie wrote:

    or do you want to control everything yourself - and build your own pieced together interfaces..for free?


    Like whole Linux system?

  • User profile image
    raena

    I believe you'll find that using a status bar (rather than the current statusbar icon) has been a feature request for some time -- I'd bet it was before that Longhorn feature was shown.

  • User profile image
    Steve411

    In theaters August 31st

     "Internet Explorer Strikes Back"

    Then,
       September 15th

    "Firefox Gets Burned"

  • User profile image
    Steve411

    Bogusrabin wrote:
    jamie wrote: do you want your computer to run pretty much everything, look great and automate alot of stuff for you?  would you pay extra for that?


    Like Windows?

    jamie wrote:
    or do you want to control everything yourself - and build your own pieced together interfaces..for free?


    Like whole Linux system?


    "When you look at the facts presented by Gatner and IDC, coupled with the customer feedback we [ MS ] are receiving from the releases of Windows Server System, Exchange 2003, and Office System, our belief has only intesified that Microsoft's innovation delivers the business value that customers are asking for. What has also been found is that through the product support lifecycle, Windows is in fact a more affordable, more secure investment than the technologies coming from the linux stack!"

     In other words, Linux IS more expensive than Windows.
      
      Take a look at this quick chart i put together:
       note: made this as a copy of the original chart from the "Essential information about windows and Linux" package! Have no scanner so I could not scan the original.

  • User profile image
    sbc

    Notice for Web sites, Linux is cheaper though - perhaps due the existence of Apache, PHP, MySQL etc.

    For small websites perhaps LAMP is the best solution.

    What are the licensing issues with a Microsoft web server (i.e. IIS)? I assume for the web, you just use a per CPU license - per client could be very expensive.

    It all depends on what you want - Windows will not always be cheapest, but neither will RedHat/SuSE etc. Linux is here to stay (as IBM, Sun, Novell, RedHat etc have much interest in it), as is Microsoft.

  • User profile image
    Tom Malone

    there is a small problem with all these figures. You still have to pay for windows as you don't with some copies of linux.

    Before you all say redhat suse etc charge, they do , but if you know what you're doing try

    // for server standard installs
    http://www.debian.org
    http://www.userlinux.com

    // for general desktops
    http://fedora.redhat.com

    microsoft can produce all the bogus charts it likes linux does not have to be expensive.

  • User profile image
    arnix

    I think "Firefox Copies IE" thing was posted just for the heck of it. Tell me who isn't copying? MS Windows is still trying to be Mac OS, IE7 I bet will have many features from Mozilla and others, with Media Player 10 and the rumored MSN Online Music store MS is trying to copy iTunes, KDE and GNOME copy Windows and Mac OS UI/features regularly. Its been there from the very beginning so we shouldn't waste our time debating it. Everyone of the big players like MS,Apple,IBM etc. are basically 'Pirates of the Silicon Valley' and they will continue this business of copying in the future too.

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    Tom Malone wrote:
    there is a small problem with all these figures. You still have to pay for windows as you don't with some copies of linux.

    Before you all say redhat suse etc charge, they do , but if you know what you're doing try

    // for server standard installs
    http://www.debian.org
    http://www.userlinux.com

    // for general desktops
    http://fedora.redhat.com

    microsoft can produce all the bogus charts it likes linux does not have to be expensive.


    Bogus eh? You act as if the startup charge was the only charge you ever have. There is the time you spend configuring it, troubleshooting, putting security into place, and so on. All of which just so happen to be much more difficult with Linux and therefore more expensive.

    By the way, where does the money come from for the maker to develop, patch and support the software? You surely don't think that they can rely on government grants forever. If you expect a corporation to internally cover that then they'll be spending even more money.

    arnix wrote:
    I think "Firefox Copies IE" thing was posted just for the heck of it.


    Didn't I say:

    "I didn't think I'd see Firefox copy IE until after Longhorn was out..."

    arnix wrote:
    Tell me who isn't copying?


    Generally speaking, Microsoft.

    arnix wrote:
    MS Windows is still trying to be Mac OS,


    Mac OS is a classic document centric operating system like Windows 95. Microsoft has been working towards making windows more and more task centric. Why would they be trying to take a step backwards?

    arnix wrote:
    IE7 I bet will have many features from Mozilla and others,


    I may remind you that Visual Studio has a tabbed interface and the MSN Toolbar has popup blocking.

    arnix wrote:
    with Media Player 10 and the rumored MSN Online Music store MS is trying to copy iTunes,


    To my understanding, Windows Media Player 10 has a more streamlined interface than iTunes. How is making something superior copying?

    arnix wrote:
    KDE and GNOME copy Windows and Mac OS UI/features regularly.


    Many open source organizations copy companies and corporations. That is nothing new.

  • User profile image
    phunky_avoc​ado

    Sheesh!  Pick most any commodity you like.  Then tell me that the manufacturers in that space don't copy one another.  Like, aspirin, when "coated to protect your tummy from upset" came out by one manufacturer, pretty soon all the major brands came out with the same thing.  Water-proof bandaids, bottled water, free checking, toys in cereal boxes,...  Ok, lame examples.  But it's still true.  Why should software be any different than the rest of the business world?  Why do people blow smoke about it?  It all comes from this adolescent need to divide the world into right and wrong and to take a stand on one side or the other so as to define one's identity to one's peers.

    arnix wrote:

    I think "Firefox Copies IE" thing was posted just for the heck of it. Tell me who isn't copying? MS Windows is still trying to be Mac OS, IE7 I bet will have many features from Mozilla and others, with Media Player 10 and the rumored MSN Online Music store MS is trying to copy iTunes, KDE and GNOME copy Windows and Mac OS UI/features regularly. Its been there from the very beginning so we shouldn't waste our time debating it. Everyone of the big players like MS,Apple,IBM etc. are basically 'Pirates of the Silicon Valley' and they will continue this business of copying in the future too.

  • User profile image
    Varsity

    I do believe the popup bar is now in the Windows API, so technically they are copying IE as much as they are by having a tool bar. Wink

    I for one will be turning the thing off - it's a complete pain.

  • User profile image
    Bogusrabin

    Shining Arcanine wrote:

    arnix wrote:KDE and GNOME copy Windows and Mac OS UI/features regularly.
    Many open source organizations copy companies and corporations. That is nothing new.


    There are no huge circus around open source softwares all the time.
    I'm pretty sure that very few Linux user know that it's possible make
    "Glass"-theme (the same which is in Longhorn) or a lot nicer theme to Linux (Unixlike OS) Windows Manager today if you want to. And there will be vector based WMs and GUIs also. People know it only just when they see those.
    All these computer magazines etc. has made sure that people do know what Longhorn looks like and what user can do with it.

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