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ASP.NET vs Tradition

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  • User profile image
    jsampsonPC

    The opinions of PHP/MySQL - to - ASP.NET developers would be greatly appreciated!

    Everybody here - I assume - began developing websites years and years ago in the traditional format.

    Bust open an instance of Notepad, get a beer/coke/fruitpunch, and start crackin.

    Many of you have abandoned the pure-form of development, and have now started using VisualStudio and ASP.NET technologies to develop your sites.

    My question is this...how much easier is it to do work in ASP.NET than it was the traditional way?

    The reason I'm asking is because I spent over 2 hours the other night developing a Calendar Class for PHP. After developing this, I was playing around in the VS IDE, and drug a calendar onto a page in ASP.NET - needless to say, the results upset me Smiley

    I wasted my time with the PHP class.

    What would I expect from ASP.NET, and how easy of a technology is it to learn when your entire life was nothing more than notepad-ish technique?

    Jonathan

  • User profile image
    DoomBringer

    I've had to throw together PHP pages from outta nowhere before, using whatever I could think of, so I'm not really qualified to talk about PHP in the most specific sense.

    What I got out of PHP is that while nice, it isn't necessarily as robust as say, C#/ASP.NET.  At the time though, I needed something that would run on a fairly run of the mill *nix distro, so I put the PHP together as fast as could be.  Its not terrible, but its not what I'm used to.

  • User profile image
    Human​Compiler

    IMHO, there's not much of a comparison, they're very different.  Scripted vs. Compiled.  MySQL vs. SQL Server.  Totally different.

    I started off with a little Perl, HTML & Javascript in '97, then moved straight to Classic ASP (not so classic at the time), actually it was that weird stuff before it was called ASP.  I forget the name at the moment though.  I haven't really created anything using PHP myself, but hung around the Flash/PHP community for a couple years and I'd say Classic ASP and PHP have a lot more in common than PHP and ASP.NET.  ASP.NET is more like writing software as a web app.

    I'm obviously biased since I've been writing ASP.NET apps since it was Pre-Beta, but I would highly recommend checking it out.  That said, what types of applications are you writing, because I'm sure PHP has some advantages and ASP.NET has other advantages depending on the types of applications you're writing.  For stuff like Channel 9, 10, etc I don't know how we would've done it without ASP.NET.  Well yes I do.  Very slowly.  Wink

    We can all give you advice, but you'll never really truely know which is better for you without trying everything.

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    I write in PHP...

    Honestly I love it...and it offers (IMO) a few benefits over ASP

    DISCLAIMER: I spent 1 day on ASP and never "Got it"

    1. ASP = Price of Windows Server & Time of Setup & Time of IIS setup + Price of VIsual Studio (if that is your thing) or the Express versions. Learning how to code in ASP <% or whatever... calendar.dateTimePicker or whatever...takes time. Windows updates, Virus Scans, etc..etc...

    2. PHP Runs on Linux (I have a server at home and work) 30 Minutes install time, apt-get install php5-mysql (PHP Done in 3 minutes) apt-get install mysql-server (MySQL done in 2 minutes) apt-get install apache2 (4 minutes) and if you want to get lazy (apt-get install phpmyadmin 2 minutes). Done...and if you know really any kind of programming language PHP seems logical. Use any tool to write in. Visual Studio, Notepad, Stone tablets handed to you by god, whatever...Linux doesn't require really ANY updates (if you choose not to install them)

    But Erik is right...I think ASP is more a client scripting whereas with PHP it's more server scripting. Over the past two weeks I've been twisting PHP into ways that humanly shouldn't be possible (which means I'm probably not doing something right) but it's really powerfull from my experiences...

    And that's my take.

  • User profile image
    Human​Compiler

    Cybermagellan wrote:
    
    But Erik is right...I think ASP is more a client scripting whereas with PHP it's more server scripting.


    Thanks for thinking I'm right, but that's not what I said.  Wink  PHP and ASP.NET are both server side code.  What I meant was that PHP is a scripting language (the code is interpreted on the fly every page hit, much live Javascript but instead of on the client, it's on the server) where ASP.NET is compiled (JIT'd) code on the first request.  I made the comparison of PHP and Classic ASP, because Classic ASP worked like PHP, where the script is interpreted on the fly.

  • User profile image
    jsampsonPC

    Well,

    I spent a couple days in ASP.NET, and it seems like a big Click-n-drag IDE..which makes me feel like an IDIOT when I use them Smiley "You want a calendar, young man? Okay then, do you see that picture over there, yeah, that one...pull it over here. Yay! You're a programmer now! Go tell all your friends, and later we'll drag a picture on here...and I'll show you how to manipulate it..then you'll be a designer too!"

    For the last 2 hours I've been blasting Techno-Club music in my headphones, and banging out lines of PHP developing a somewhat complex calendar application with PHP/MySQL...and to be honest, I feel more like a l337 hax0r right now than when I was in the VS IDE doing ASP.NET Smiley

    And besides, am I the only person who gets really nervous when an IDE wrotes hundreds of lines of code that I can't see simply by dragging a "calendar icon" onto my my "canvas"? I mean...that's scary Smiley What the heck is it telling my page to do, I want to know...I want to have complete control without finding ghost-code in my pages 6 months later.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    Cybermagellan wrote:
    I write in PHP...

    Honestly I love it...and it offers (IMO) a few benefits over ASP

    DISCLAIMER: I spent 1 day on ASP and never "Got it"



    You are also confusing ASP with ASP.Net. Two totally different beasts

  • User profile image
    Ion Todirel

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    Well, I spent a couple days in ASP.NET, and it seems like a big Click-n-drag IDE..which makes me feel like an IDIOT when I use them "You want a calendar, young man? Okay then, do you see that picture over there, yeah, that one...pull it over here. Yay! You're a programmer now!
     for very very simple pages maybe. For complex web pages you have to write code by "hand", and OO code, write your own controls, like Calendar etc.

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    And besides, am I the only person who gets really nervous when an IDE wrotes hundreds of lines of code that I can't see simply by dragging a "calendar icon" onto my my "canvas"?
    thats a control man, its made for you to improve productivity. When you drag and drop, you just use it.

  • User profile image
    mawcc

    Cybermagellan wrote:
    
    DISCLAIMER: I spent 1 day on ASP and never "Got it"


    I'd recommend to grab Visual Web Developer and give it a try. There are lots of video tutorials to get you started. I've shown ASP.NET to a PHP developer the other day and he instantly "got it" and fell in love with the technology.
    Try to be objective and not let this "But it's from Microsoft"-feeling influence you (neither negatively nor positively).

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    mawcc wrote:
    
    Cybermagellan wrote:
    DISCLAIMER: I spent 1 day on ASP and never "Got it"


    I'd recommend to grab Visual Web Developer and give it a try. There are lots of video tutorials to get you started. I've shown ASP.NET to a PHP developer the other day and he instantly "got it" and fell in love with the technology.
    Try to be objective and not let this "But it's from Microsoft"-feeling influence you (neither negatively nor positively).


    yeah I have it at work to edit my XML...I've never noticed any videos, but I can always take a second look

  • User profile image
    jsampsonPC

    My work purchased VisualStudioPro...which has the build in webpage editing crap...I don't need Visual Web Developer if I have VSPro, do I?

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    My work purchased VisualStudioPro...which has the build in webpage editing crap...I don't need Visual Web Developer if I have VSPro, do I?


    No. Although if you're going into it with the attitude that it's crap, is there really any point?

  • User profile image
    Deactivated User

    Comment removed at user's request.

  • User profile image
    webmonkey

    I'm itching to have a go with asp.net, and will soon get around to it.

    For much the same reason as you actually, a few weeks ago I spent an awful lot of time writing a php calendar script, popped open VWD dropped one in and thought ooooooh.

    I started with basic JS, went onto ASP 3.0, then learnt more advanced JS and recently PHP. PHP was so easy to pick up my first app has been a rather large CMS system, something which I'd now like to have a go at porting to asp.net just to see the difference in technologies.

    How cut down is the express edition of VWD ?
    I think I'll find it a bit of a shock to start with, notepad is my most used application by far.

  • User profile image
    PDearmore

    yman wrote:
    ... I just don't like it when they say "and all this can be done without writing any code", it sends shivers down my back.


    I totally agree with that.  Same thing with the web parts and personalization.

    I recently had to make the switch from ASP to ASP.NET.  There's good points and bad points.  On a smaller application ASP was definitely easier.  One of the most frustrating things is the totally different (and to me more complicated) way of connecting to and reading from a database.  On a larger application--well it would be pretty awkward to write multiple tiers in ASP.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    PDearmore wrote:
    
    yman wrote:... I just don't like it when they say "and all this can be done without writing any code", it sends shivers down my back.


    I totally agree with that.  Same thing with the web parts and personalization.


    It's not that bad in reality.

    When I started ASP.NET, I thought ASP.NET's button control was the same as Windows Form's button control as far as the developer was concerned, I really wanted to know how it really worked under the hood.

    Well a year later I knew enough about it to tell it what to do, not for it to tell me what to do Smiley

    You can easily remove the "No code" bits from projects and master controls for yourself to generate the HTML you want, even to the level of indentation.

    The only "core" part of ASP.NET I'm not happy with is Viewstate and Control events, I really don't see the point. All they do is encourage bad habits, like _doPostBack links (that break websites for anyone not using Javascript-enabled browsers)

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    I think ViewState is a good thing, although I wouldn't have minded it if it had been off by default. With it being on for every element by default you see some pages with truly horrendous viewstates, especially when they use data bound controls which tend to store their entire state in the viewstate.

  • User profile image
    Human​Compiler

    yman wrote:
    I am nervous of using the very abstract providers in asp.net such as the 2.0 membership providers. I just don't like it when they say "and all this can be done without writing any code", it sends shivers down my back. An example of my reluctance is that I only started using asp.net forms authentication last week, I coded the full auth system myself before.



    Don't be scared man!  Smiley  It's all good.  Sure you can have it "just work" right out of the box which is great, but it's a provider.  One, there's tons of options to change it how you like and if you still can't get it how you like it, you can inherit and build your own!

    Like for our code base, we just used the default provider, but we didn't like that the profile information was bunched up into a single field.  We need to query specific pieces of user information on the fly, so Duncan set it up so the profile information is in a seperate table with each property being a field instead.  There are plenty of examples out there.  It's not hard.  You can customize it however you want.  It is !theSuck.

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