Coffeehouse Thread

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Any chance to go and see the Vb.net team again?

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  • User profile image
    Chadk

    So, with the recent beta of XNA Express stuff, us who like vb.net was to be let down again. Thus, i would like to hear from the Vb.net team, and hear where they think vb.net is going.

    Why do you ask?

    It seemed to be a rather fast done thing, that have been given little thought.
    I would bet that it was done like this, on a meeting:
    "We need to have an IDE for this. We have this thing over here, called Visual C# Express.. It suits us fine, we can extend it. We take it!".

    But what happend? VB.net was nowhere to see!

    A statsment on the XNA forum says:

    "It's already been stated that additional language support will be offered in the future. In order to get it out the door in a reasonable amount of time, only one language could be supported and C# was chosen. "

    In this case, it seemed to me, that Microsoft have gone in, and said "We like C# better, and we want this product out fast".
    But this have now done that they ship, what looks like ½ product. Its NOT Microsofts job, to select the language the user should do the games in.
    In that case, lets leave .NET alone, and go ahead and strip most of the .NET apart, and just have all the things like BCL, the C# compiler, and what else is needed for C# code to work, and run!

    This build we got, is not even to consider as a beta, i think. Its a very early CTP!!

    THIS IS NOT the first time, that VB.net is pushed aside, and C# have been the only language that seem to work.

    Have a look here:
    http://discuss.mediacentersandbox.com/forums/permalink/67/120/ShowThread.aspx#120

    No Vb.net support for Media Center either? See a pattern emerging? You are forced into doing C#!

    This is likely not the only place, where this happend, but im not gonna write more on it.

    Was VB.net really just like J#, a stepstone for old developers, to step into .NET, and go over to C#? Im afraid to say it. But i really think this is the case now.

    I will leave the question open here. And i really beg Charles or somebody, to go and find out, what the heck is going on. Because this development is just not acceptable!!

  • User profile image
    Ang3lFir3

    w00t im famous!

    I'd really like to know too what the internal thoughts are on always making VB.net always a second class language... It's always like support for VB.net development is an after thought.

    we've argued before about C# vs VB.net and as a whole the community agrees (or should agree) that it shouldn't matter... but its begining to feel like MSFT cares. It seems that MSFT teams are only supporting VB.net as an after thought.

    The Patterns and Practices team often releases C# factories first... VB.net comes later when they feel like it.

    I've got news for anyone who hasn't heard yet. There ARE tons of devs, serious devs who make their livings writing code all day, that use VB.net. Devs who love it and swear by it.

    Wasn't .Net supposed to be about less code and about not worrying what language you use? Wasn't it supposed to be more about development? More about just developing new technologies? Kinda hard to do when language support isn't even there..

    Don't you think?

    I for one would like to be able to write in my language of choice from the get-go ..... MSFT releases new ctp's and tech and if I want to play with it I have to do it in C#? wth? that is not very .NET

    Just as in the linked post above (which is from the MCML forums) you see that VB.net isn't supported and even tho the MCML templates are more about writing MCML they still have code behind them.... code that may be interesting to VB.net devs..... code they may want to add too....

    So while like ChadK i can read and write C# I choose not too... because i like VB.net better.....

    Remember .NET isn't supposed to be about language.... its supposed to be about development.... but apperantly that really only applies if you write C#....

    I challenge a MSFT team to release a VB.net version of a new poduct ctp first... or better yet not release anything without both C# and VB.net support (at least)....

    Someone go interview the VB.net team and see what they think about all this!

  • User profile image
    Ion Todirel

    well, sometimes C# is left behind sometimes VB, don't worry just wait a little.

  • User profile image
    Chadk

    Ion Todirel wrote:
    

    well, sometimes C# is left behind sometimes VB, don't worry just wait a little.


    When did you last see this happen?

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    When the new VB got literal XML support, and C# didn't.

    Dim person =
       <Person Depth="SQL Server">
          <Name>Erik Meijer</Name>
       </Person>
  • User profile image
    Chadk

    TommyCarlier wrote:
    

    When the new VB got literal XML support, and C# didn't.

    Dim person =
       <Person Depth="SQL Server">
          <Name>Erik Meijer</Name>
       </Person>

    That is a language feature - not a product feature.
    Sure, if you look at the language itself, and what they are doing with it, its not dead.

    But when the product teams inside microsoft doesn't support vb.net, like the 2 cases i wrote about, theres a problem.

    If we cant use VB.net, for instance with XNA or with the media center, why even bother?

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    I don't think VB.NET will go away soon, as they keep developing new versions with new features. Have you seen the C9 video with Brian Beckman about Monads, Monoids and Mort?

  • User profile image
    Chadk

    TommyCarlier wrote:
    I don't think VB.NET will go away soon, as they keep developing new versions with new features. Have you seen the C9 video with Brian Beckman about Monads, Monoids and Mort?

    Watching it as i post.

  • User profile image
    mawcc

    Remember that for MS it's important to give all those C/C++ and Java developers out there something that they are at least barely familiar with. And that's C# more than it is VB.NET.
    Especially game developers who traditionally come from a C/C++ background will find it easier to use C# than VB.NET.
    On the other hand, VB.NET developers won't find it too hard to use C# because they already know the Framework stuff and the basic language features (which are similar between C# and VB.NET).
    So in a sense C# is the least common denominator of both the C/C++ and the VB.NET camps.

  • User profile image
    Chadk

    mawcc wrote:
    Remember that for MS it's important to give all those C/C++ and Java developers out there something that they are at least barely familiar with. And that's C# more than it is VB.NET.
    Especially game developers who traditionally come from a C/C++ background will find it easier to use C# than VB.NET.
    On the other hand, VB.NET developers won't find it too hard to use C# because they already know the Framework stuff and the basic language features (which are similar between C# and VB.NET).
    So in a sense C# is the least common denominator of both the C/C++ and the VB.NET camps.


    As you see, Visual Basic, is much more common, compared to C#! Only Java and C(++) is more used.

    But who cares?
    It is NOT Microsoft's job to go ahead and say "Here, take this product, use it, but you have to use C#".. Its not only sad for the developers that do VB.net, but its also cutting many developers off.

    Lets take the example of XNA. XNA Studio Express, is well, an express product. Thus its aimed for students, and people like those.
    And most students i know, that do programming, actually does Vb.net. Why? Because its the best .NET language!

    People i talk to, do often say "VB.net is for beginners and wannabe programmers". But this is complete bull, and does not reflect the reallity. Yet this is what i hear from most people(Mostly C# programmers), i talk to. Go ahead and ask on a C# channel, on an irc network, like quakenet or freenode, and you will get my point.

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    Chadk, if you look carefully to the graph, you can see they use the name "Basic", not "VB.NET". Basic covers VB, QBasic, VB.NET and other Basic dialects. I'm not denying that VB.NET is popular and used a lot, but we don't know how much of that Basic is VB.NET.

  • User profile image
    mawcc

    Chadk wrote:
    
    People i talk to, do often say "VB.net is for beginners and wannabe programmers". But this is complete bull, and does not reflect the reallity. Yet this is what i hear from most people(Mostly C# programmers), i talk to. Go ahead and ask on a C# channel, on an irc network, like quakenet or freenode, and you will get my point.


    Yes, I agree. That's because I wrote that C# and VB.NET are similar in features. The difference is mainly in syntax, not in expressiveness.
    I also agree that VB is widely reagarded as a toy language. It's not true, but something Microsoft has to deal with. C# somehow has a more professional image, and offering something that should stir interest outside of the usual Microsoft clientele has a better chance of beeing recognized if it's not VB.

  • User profile image
    Chadk

    mawcc wrote:
    
    Chadk wrote: 
    People i talk to, do often say "VB.net is for beginners and wannabe programmers". But this is complete bull, and does not reflect the reallity. Yet this is what i hear from most people(Mostly C# programmers), i talk to. Go ahead and ask on a C# channel, on an irc network, like quakenet or freenode, and you will get my point.


    Yes, I agree. That's because I wrote that C# and VB.NET are similar in features. The difference is mainly in syntax, not in expressiveness.
    I also agree that VB is widely reagarded as a toy language. It's not true, but something Microsoft has to deal with.

    Yes. And when the products team simply say "We dont wanna ship anything but a C# produt", that happens.
    Thus microsoft should either, when they ship a product with .NET support, support both vb.net and C#, or none. The other way arround is just BAD.

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