Coffeehouse Thread

34 posts

More Vista Review -- Two weeks In

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    John Galt

    Vista is getting more and more on my nerves, not less as you'd expect as I adapt. Here's just a short list:

    Remote Desktop forces me to login at first. At least it allows me to save my credentials. But then it insists on logging in as webaddress/Administrator or IP Address/Administrator. Hello! I'm remote desktoping! I am logging in as "administrator" not something else. Why oh why??? And 3 extra steps for no reason. (yes I'm talking about the pre-login stuff which is fine if it worked logically)

    UAC has to go. But to get rid of it completely (and not completely but as close as you can get) you have to drop to safe mode, reenable the admin account then disable UAC and then login as administrator and BTW, VS.net 2005 still won't let you browse or run web sites in IIS 7 saying that you're not an administrator (why that would matter I don't know)

    Earth to MS: Nagging people constantly is not security. People just click yes all of the time because things don't work if htey don't and they don't understand your prompt anyhow so it's just an extra step that will automatically be taken and doesn't make the OS any more secure.  This is Social Engineering 101. Wake up.  You have to make the OS secure by determining what is intentional user action and what is automatic. This is easy to do. If the user clicked the mouse or hit the keyboard, that's intentional. Everything else is not. If it was intentional then don't ask. If it wasn't then ask or outright block without asking depending on the scenario.  In short: In .NET add a flag to the keyboard and mouse events that allows you to tell if the events were raised in code or if it was direct User interaction with the actual device. And then use that flag to determine if the question is asked.  Very simple and very easy to do. Requires apps to use it though, which takes more time than this mess. But thing Outlook does this mess too, and everyone just dutifully clicks the "yes for 10 minutes" and continues regardless anyhow there too because the Outlook guys are just as clueless as the Vista guys at MS about security. This is not security, this is just an anoyance.

    The network icon in the tray isn't animated and even when you animate it you can't see what it's doing. This one thing (which should be the default in XP too to show the icon) is the single easiest way to diagnose network issues because you can see the activity. Now I can't. So I have to go into the status screen....... Which is burried 4 screens deep and still doesn't even tell me the IP address until I go into details. Windows XP? Right click on icon, chose status you're done.  This is a fantastic way to ensure that network admins everywhere go back to the command prompt and use IPConfig again because it's actually faster to go to a command prompt that it is to use the UI. Hello!!!!!! Wakeup people! Put the status back on the right click of the ICON IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE TO FIX VISTA. and put the damn IP, subnet, dns and router back on the status screen!!!! (I feel like I'm back in Windows 2000!)

    Wizards with the back button in the top left and next, finish and cancel in the bottom right??? Hello??? and the back button is a graphic, and the other buttons text???? HELLO??? What exactly was the UI people smoking??

    IE 7.... How I hate your UI.  The drop down list for back history is on the forward button... brilliant... wow that's just stupid, put it on the back button for gods sake!The refresh and stop buttons are on the opposite side of the screen from where my cursor is at any given time and tiny. And you can't move htem back where they belong!!! Put 'em back where they should be and where your mouse cursor is all of the time!!!!! God!!!! And blocking my damn clipboard??? Anyone know how to turn off this stupid feature??? Please god, someone tell me how to get rid of that freakin nag screen!! I can't even highlight a link and copy it into my address bar without it freaking out!!!! GRRR.

    Right click on desktop... now I have to choose personalize and then go into another screen and then I can get at my screen resolutions... in a dialog box that pops up instead of being integrated into the personalization window like the rest of it is.  If Nvidia can do it with their control panel, so can Vista.  This is just a small example of the OS not being complete (font dialog is the same problem).  You've made it two steps to do what used to be one step. Brilliant.

    Windows Media Player 11.... You can't just right click and choose play on your entire library. I use shuffle and just skip stuff i don't want to listen to. It's now a 3 step process to do this or I have to keep a play list up-to-date all of the time. Stupid. Oh and it doesn't remember my playlist from the last time I restarted my computer unless I close media player before shutting down my computer so I have to do this each and every time I start my machine instead of just having it in my startup folder set to minimized.  Again, more steps I didn't have to take before.

    The sidebar... waste of space, pain in the (I need to watch my language) to get rid of and gives my application development even less space to work with. This thing should be off by default. It's horrible and such a disappointment to what it was going to be.It nags me all of the time with I turn off UAC. So I have to get rid of the entire security center... Brilliant. (and there is no way to tell it to ignore that UAC is disabled)

    The start menu when you click "all programs" is horribly slow. I assume they'll fix that, but man, what a pain in the (I need to watch my language) to organize now. Drag and drop is flaky and the scrolling list... for idiots that have 500 folders and icons in their start menu, this might be a beneift. But for people that actually are marginally organized this is a disaster. End result, everything has to be pinned on the start menu. Yuk.

    I can live with telnet not being installed by default. Glad I found you can install it again...

    IIS 7's control panel UI is aweful. Not much to say other then, wow this thing was written by a two year old. And everything is all over the place and way to complex. Oh well, guess I'm going to be making a ton of money configuring IIS 7 on machines....

    Outlook Express uses a nice blue toolbar background. Other apps use a green one, and others use a black one and others use other colors. What gives??? One color with consistancy please!!!

    Still no expanded start bar that shows the apps running on that screen... still have to use UltraMon to do the most basic thing going with multi-mon even though MS's own information shows that multi-mon makes you way more productive, but they don't embrace it. I hope nvidia or ati put this into their drivers by default. I'll get one of their cards just for that feature done right.

    Still no different wallpaper for your second display so it looks like cr*p... back to black desktop again. (and so much for pretty UI)

    Aero Glass... who cares??? You only see it when you have apps not full screen. And guess what? Everyone runs their apps full screen so you never see it. (and makes the title harder to read thus making it pointless... great UI advance MS... and nothing from Avalon in any of the stuff... except for a little in the games which looks good, but the rest of the OS doesn't use any of it.... brilliant. Even the OS doesn't use your new GUI engine!!!

    Flip 3d... nice but most people don't know that you can hit ALT+TAB and certainly not Windows+Tab. It should be the default for ALT+Tab.

    Why in god's name is that stupid quick launch bar back by default??? There isn't enough space on my tiny little start bar (because it doesn't span across screens) as it is. I don't need more space wasted. (and the power users that would actually use it and know what ot do with it? they know how to turn it on manually thank you very much)

    The folder icons are horrible looking.  Windows XP looks better.

    At least now in Windows Explorer I can put the folders up by default and it remembers and goes full side bar like XP instead of that stupid favourites list.... But by default folders don't expand on click even though you get a hand icon which says "one click" to everyone on the planet. Instead you still have to double click with the hand. Completely breaking all UI rules. (All programs in the start bar actually works right ironically)

    What the heck with the "James Hancock" folder and all of the cr*p in there? Just yet another step for me to get to my documents. And of course there is all of those old short cuts to the old stuff (presumably for compatitbilty) that just makes it a mess and drives me nuts when I'm not allowed to go into any of them anyhow because of the security model in Vista. I still can't figure out how to get into my temp directory to blow it away.  YUK.

    Overall, Vista is a major step back from Windows XP. It's harder to use, way more inconsistant throughout, takes more steps to do everything and generally makes my life more difficult. If I wanted that, I'd be running Linux.

    Maybe the mac isn't looking so bad afterall.... just have to get a good C# development tool in there and then I can use Mono plus Wine under OS X... and of course I've always bitched about the same things above in OS X... and it's actually less bad than Vista now... Looks like MS decided to copy the disaster that is OSX too and chose only to copy the things that are horribly wrong with it instead of the good things....I am incredibly disappointed.  This is the first new OS from MS that is a step back in every way from the previous version and I will be recommending clients stay away from (not counting ME but who cares about it, Windows 2000 was out at the same time).  Here's hoping we have an SE version that is what this one should have been released within 12 months of Vista, cause this is a garbage OS that demonstrates everything that is wrong in MS right now including the "committy design team" that has created a frankenstien in every way. But unlike Frankenstien, there is nothing to pitty in this monstrosity.

    If anyone wants to invest, I'm considering writting my own OS that is natively .NET and supports all Windows .NET applications and actually has an intelligent UI that is 100% consistant across the board (and I have a highly successful track record of doing just this with UI design under my belt so I can say this without sounding like an a$$).  Now's the time, because MS is just begging someone to take their OS monopoly away from them with Vista. It's just so bad, and so expensive that if someone can make an OS that is easy and consistant and supports the apps that they already use, then people will switch in a heart beat at this point.

  • User profile image
    John Galt

    Sorry for no line breaks. The editor in Channel 9 in Vista is screwed and completely destroyed all of my paragraph formatting... add that to the list of stupidity in Vista.

  • User profile image
    erik_

    This is one line.

    This is the second line.

    Works fine in Vista build 5600...

    Are you copy/pasting?

    No one is gonna read this text, because it is simply not possible.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    John Galt wrote:
    Vista is getting more and more on my nerves, not less as you'd expect as I adapt. Here's just a short list:Remote Desktop forces me to login at first. At least it allows me to save my credentials. But then it insists on logging in as webaddress/Administrator or IP Address/Administrator.


    Remote Desktop has always required you to log in, so I'm not quite sure how that is different. And usernames under Windows are always of the form <domain>\< user> a standalone workstation shouldn't care what you put in for the domain field but Windows will default to the name you're connecting to (hence the IP address)

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    John Galt wrote:
    Sorry for no line breaks. The editor in Channel 9 in Vista is screwed and completely destroyed all of my paragraph formatting... add that to the list of stupidity in Vista.

    I suspect the OS shouldn't be the first to blame in this case... Expressionless

  • User profile image
    Minh

    John Galt wrote:
    The sidebar... waste of space, pain in the (I need to watch my language) to get rid of

    It's the penalty for naughty language.

  • User profile image
    L_Park1

    Repost your message formated correctly and then we all should read it!

  • User profile image
    Cyonix

    AndyC wrote:
    
    John Galt wrote: Vista is getting more and more on my nerves, not less as you'd expect as I adapt. Here's just a short list:Remote Desktop forces me to login at first. At least it allows me to save my credentials. But then it insists on logging in as webaddress/Administrator or IP Address/Administrator.


    Remote Desktop has always required you to log in, so I'm not quite sure how that is different. And usernames under Windows are always of the form <domain>\< user> a standalone workstation shouldn't care what you put in for the domain field but Windows will default to the name you're connecting to (hence the IP address)
    I know what he is talking about (i think.. no im not reading that chunk of text lol). If you dont want to login using a domain or computer name, use this for the username: "\Administrator" (without quotes).

  • User profile image
    John Galt

    Whoohoo! Finally got it to format my stuff correctly... please fix this! (and (I need to watch my language) isn't bad language anymore because it's on network television all of the time, thus passes mustard on the internet for sure! Same with crap)

  • User profile image
    DCMonkey

    Re: Sidebar "Waste of Space..."

    I've seen this complaint before and I don't get it. Since at least Beta 2, the sidebar has been set to "not on top" by default. You can maximize or move windows over it with impunity. What space wasting are you talking about?

  • User profile image
    erik_

    Is the windows sidebar even on by default?

    Because I just did a fresh installation and I needed to turn it on!

    BTW: I disagree on most of your points. But it's probaly kinda useless to discuss, you like A, I like B. That's it.Smiley

  • User profile image
    John Galt

    erik_ wrote:
    Is the windows sidebar even on by default?

    Because I just did a fresh installation and I needed to turn it on!

    BTW: I disagree on most of your points. But it's probaly kinda useless to discuss, you like A, I like B. That's it.


    If it takes longer to do then by defintion they've failed.  That's an objective, not a subjective measurement of success. Since in almost every area it now takes more work to do the same tasks, Vista is inferior to XP. Simple as that. There's nothing preferential about my comments, they're all "why are you wasting my time?" comments.

    As for security, they have failed horribly because even the people within MS are complaining about it, and turning it off and saying the same thing I said about all of the prompts all of the time. You just click yes all of the time, and thus there still is no security. What they have done isn't security, it's anoyance.

    And yes, the sidebar is on by default. And it tells you how useless it has gotten by the fact that it isn't on top all of the time. (mine was as of the build right before RC1 which is what I'm using btw)

  • User profile image
    Braulston

    I've had issues with 5600 and SQL 2005, Report Server will not install under IIS7, Incomaptability Dialogs for the Surface area configuration tool, AdventureWorks DB would not load, insuficient space (on a 250 GB HD). I cannot believe that MS cannot inure they're own applications run on Vista.

    I did find a KB article on the IIS7 issue, but it turned out to be only a half solution.

    Brad

  • User profile image
    codeguy64

    They Really need to bring back the XP Style right clicking options on the network icon in Vista.
    -agreed

    The new scrolling (all programs) in the Start bar is just dumb.
    At least give me the option to have it the old way. Not just go back to "Classic Start menu". Come on MS.
    -agreed

  • User profile image
    Ang3lFir3

    John Galt wrote:

    Earth to MS: Nagging people constantly is not security. People just click yes all of the time because things don't work if htey don't and they don't understand your prompt anyhow so it's just an extra step that will automatically be taken and doesn't make the OS any more secure.  This is Social Engineering 101.


    This is commonly refered to as "I want to work today" syndrome.

    and its scary.....

  • User profile image
    jamie

    ok - ill bite (big post)

    1. Remote Desktop.  Cant comment - only got this working once. loved it - but too hard to remember / dont use it

    2. UAC / Security.  Agreed.  The approach so far has been to basically put signs all over that say - "you want to do this? go ahead if you want - but dont say we didnt warn you"  =  MS off the hook.

    This is not security.  Security is logging into a secure environment - when everything is safe. Not a bunch of screens telling you off
    so - i agree on this

    3. The network icon.  ill take your word for the missing settings.  Now that everything is working for me - i havent had to go there much. But ill tell you on the laptop - in other builds - when it DIDNT work - and i was in there alot - everything was useless - and not the info i needed.  So ill agree there as well - if your saying the most important settings and stuff seems buried

    4. Back button + next being text in apps.  Agreed - grade a silly

    5. IE7  hahaha  guess! Wink    (agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!)

    6. Personalize / extra steps. wrote many posts on this - even provided sample that did the same "pretty" UI - but left options to jump around without closing it.  Ignored. C9 member TiAdiMundo also made a sample. Ignored.  (so - agreed)

    7. Media player - didnt notice if it doesnt remember playlist - if it doesnt - thats dumb  (agreed)

    8. Sidebar.  My problem with this app is i have startbar at the top - it covers it - unless for taskbar you turn back on "keep on top of other windows" in which case - other apps get stuck under taskbar. 

    *below: the sidebar - covering the icon to...the sidebar Tongue Out


     again dumb.  ( so..agreed)

    9.  wallpapers for second or 3rd (or 4th Smiley display.  agreed.  START OVER with multiple monitors.  Give your video team 8 MONITORS EACH. 

    *Rocket Science?:



    10. Folder icons - while disturbing (showing stuff falling out) i could live with it if the front of the folder was transparent - which it isnt.



    DUMB  agreed

    11. Aero - the maximize black / and jerk to full not fade. - yep dumb again - agreed.  Flip3d - i had to ask on c9 where it was - so maybe it should be default alt-tab (with an option to use classic alt-tab for those who prefer it) agreed

    12. Quick launch.  i use that all the time - so disagree on that one.

    13.  users folder - dont like the name "user" but it beats the heck out of "Documents and Settings"   so disagree  (*what happened to calling it "MyStuff?   ..ditched because of the "My" house cleaning i imagine .. =  Stuff.   haha.  Fix would be no users folder - root would be that.  ie c:\users\jamie   =   C:\jamie.  other users would appear there as well. )  ...so I guess that means i do agree! 

    14. being locked out of folders / unable to delete due to UAC - even when disabled.  Agreed.



  • User profile image
    Rossj

    jamie wrote:
    


    14. being locked out of folders / unable to delete due to UAC - even when disabled.  Agreed.





    I *LOVE,LOVE,LOVE* the Try Again button ... what a fantastic idea, that is so much better than - I dunno - an authenticate button?

  • User profile image
    erik_

    John Galt wrote:
    
    erik_ wrote: Is the windows sidebar even on by default?

    Because I just did a fresh installation and I needed to turn it on!

    BTW: I disagree on most of your points. But it's probaly kinda useless to discuss, you like A, I like B. That's it.


    If it takes longer to do then by defintion they've failed.  That's an objective, not a subjective measurement of success. Since in almost every area it now takes more work to do the same tasks, Vista is inferior to XP. Simple as that. There's nothing preferential about my comments, they're all "why are you wasting my time?" comments.

    As for security, they have failed horribly because even the people within MS are complaining about it, and turning it off and saying the same thing I said about all of the prompts all of the time. You just click yes all of the time, and thus there still is no security. What they have done isn't security, it's anoyance.

    And yes, the sidebar is on by default. And it tells you how useless it has gotten by the fact that it isn't on top all of the time. (mine was as of the build right before RC1 which is what I'm using btw)


    The sidebar is off by default in RC1 then. I can see that not all these gadgets are usefull. I don't really care what the analog time is, etc. But together with other information savy applications I can see the use of this function. Getting a small amount of information about things that interest you. An outlook widget would rock, because I don't have outlook open all the time. But I like to view my tasks, and mail all the time. A sort of notification area which can fit more information. With more and more widescreens on the market, they taken space is limited.

    UAC improved a lot already, in older builds you needed to click 3 or 4 times to remove an icon from the desktop. They need something and if I rember correctly it is already explained once, that detecting if a click is automated or a user click isn't that easy as it looks. I don't like the function, but I can see it is an usefull function for the unknow user. They now at least have something they could recognize, as long as the gray non-active function stays not hacked.
    Now they click next every time, because they simply can't detect if any of this can do any harm. Each screen looks the same to them, also to the people that want to do something about it and don't want to click next all the time.

    The target group of telnet users is probaly not large enough anymore to install this by default. Sure it takes longer to install this, but is this a world disaster? Does this takes 1 hour of your dailiy time? Now this is just a small thing, I understand.

    I can't work without the quick launch bar, and probaly many more users like this. When you have a dual screen setup, there is enough extra space on the task bar for running programs. It's just up to the driver to span the start bar over both screens.

    Areo glass is not active when the screen is maximized, because it then assumes you don't want any distraction from screen below it. Which sounds like pretty good behavior to me. The question is if the regular user would keep screens maximized in the next comming years where screens get bigger and resolutions get higher. It might not be good behaviour today, but in the future it probaly will.

    You can turn off the IE7 prompt for all scripting clipboard acces here:
     
    Tools \ Internet Options \ tab security \ select internet zone \ custom level
    In the new screen move to => Scripting \ Allow programmatic clipboard access
    is now prompt, can be turned to enable or disable.

    Which is a function that is enabled by default in IE6 and is now set to prompt by default in IE7.

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.