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Anti-Catholic hackers?

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  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Oh me, oh my!

    I just received a lengthy email from the President of "Catholic Answers". I registered on their forums ages ago, seeking to get a few questions answered (mainly about the infallibility of the Pope and all that).

    So anyway, I received a very long email seeking funds to compensate for a bunch of "Anti-Catholic Hackers", the message is rife with Senator Stevens-esque quips about how the Internet works: "These hackers also use something called “IP address spoofing”—where attackers gain unauthorized access to a computer or a network."

    ...almost as bad as the spoof "Is your Son a computer hacker" article back in 2004 where "A DoS attack is where the hacker opens a command window on the target!"


    And yes, they stooped so low as to use the "terrorism" label: "we will continue to be vulnerable and at the mercy of these high-tech “cyber terrorists.”"

    Near the end, they claim their annual running costs are around $110,000 a year (for a single site with tacky and kitsch Catholic memorbilia? HA!).

    It's the typical drive-up-sympathy-then-rape-'em strategy, somehow I doubt the problem is anywhere near as bad as they say (especially since all their sites seem to be running perfectly fine)

    This seems to go totally against Catholic ideals, they're actually trying to profiteer from this; I'm having flashbacks to Pat Robertson's "700 Club" (where he claimed "only" 700 donaters were needed to keep his TV show running)

    I've shoved it on Nopaste, what do you think?

  • User profile image
    jsampsonPC

    I dunno, the Catholic church used to (maybe still does) tell people that for a price they can pray for family members to get out of Purgatory, and into Heaven. They actually had a list of sins with their punishment price beside them, too. Something like, if you are guilty of murder, then you could give the Priest $10 and he would pray for your forgiveness. This was a while back, when $10 was something Smiley

    Maybe people are starting to think, "Hey...this priest is no better than me, save for his sweet dress!" Which would cause the Church to find another way to raise money? Smiley I dunno.

    I know it doesn't take 100k to run a little website. Right now I have several sites which cost less than $100/year to run Smiley I bet that church isn't running with anything more than a local dsl for their priests to lookup football scores.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    I dunno, the Catholic church used to (maybe still does) tell people that for a price they can pray for family members to get out of Purgatory, and into Heaven. They actually had a list of sins with their punishment price beside them, too. Something like, if you are guilty of murder, then you could give the Priest $10 and he would pray for your forgiveness. This was a while back, when $10 was something


    It doesn't, the notion of purgatory was done away back in the '60s, along with Latin mass, and Indulgences (what you're talking about)

  • User profile image
    ZippyV

    Do you guys know how much The Vatican spends on securing their site? It's a LOT of money. [A]

    But the amateur catholic site is probably exagerating. [6]

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    I dunno, the Catholic church used to (maybe still does) tell people that for a price they can pray for family members to get out of Purgatory, and into Heaven. They actually had a list of sins with their punishment price beside them, too. Something like, if you are guilty of murder, then you could give the Priest $10 and he would pray for your forgiveness. This was a while back, when $10 was something

    Maybe people are starting to think, "Hey...this priest is no better than me, save for his sweet dress!" Which would cause the Church to find another way to raise money? I dunno.

    I know it doesn't take 100k to run a little website. Right now I have several sites which cost less than $100/year to run I bet that church isn't running with anything more than a local dsl for their priests to lookup football scores.




    I think if you visited a psychic you would get a better deal than this lol. But I think its all scam. They are using faith as a business, and playing with people's faith. You should never pay no one anything for your faith, its between you and the God you worship. And God can do things for himself, does not need a mediator to do it. And that is as it should be.

  • User profile image
    jsampsonPC

    Secret, I couldn't agree more with you! (That's a change! Tongue Out)

    I woke up at 4am a few days back and some some idiot of TV belting out infront of an audience of gullable people, "Call me right now, and receive this prayer cloth...just touch it to your bills, touch it to your body, touch it to your house. Touch this prayer cloth to anything and claim victory in Jesus' name." I'm sitting back thinking, "What the heck..you idiot." As stupid as this guy is, I know there are TONS of people who are willing to shell out money for one of this guys' stupid tissues. Not only that, but I saw another preacher (Known as the "Farting Preacher") on television a few nights back advertising his new book (Which looked like a cheap brochure), "How to get rich and have everything you ever wanted."

    I'm so sick of People selling God and Faith.

  • User profile image
    jsampsonPC

    Shining, I never accused them of 'getting people outta hell.' I would be quick to admit that they don't clame to do that. I'm sorry if I gave that impression Smiley And no doubt, in matters of faith you will always have somebody, somewhere, abuse their power and deceive many sincere followers.

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    I dunno, the Catholic church used to (maybe still does) tell people that for a price they can pray for family members to get out of Purgatory, and into Heaven. They actually had a list of sins with their punishment price beside them, too. Something like, if you are guilty of murder, then you could give the Priest $10 and he would pray for your forgiveness. This was a while back, when $10 was something

    Maybe people are starting to think, "Hey...this priest is no better than me, save for his sweet dress!" Which would cause the Church to find another way to raise money? I dunno.

    I know it doesn't take 100k to run a little website. Right now I have several sites which cost less than $100/year to run I bet that church isn't running with anything more than a local dsl for their priests to lookup football scores.


    There was a time when the Catholic church granted indulgences as a thankyou for donations when it wanted to renovate Vatican City (keep in mind that at that point in time, people were so poor that to donate to this would have been to donate all they had to the church), but the monk that was sent to collect donations was so overzealous about it that he acted like a salesperson. It was so bad that the practice of granting indulgences as a thankyou for money of any form was banned in the Catholic church, pretty much because of him.

    I would have to double check, but I believe that an indulgence is only able to prevent someone from going to hell before he goes to hell. If a person gets one after he goes to hell, it will not help him. Of course, I would need to double check, but I am pretty sure that once you go to hell, there is no leaving. For someone in purgatory though, an indulgence would be a get out of jail free card.

    As for prayers, yes, prayers can also get a person out of purgatory, but the quantity of prayers necessary to accomplish that varies from person to person and you do not have to pay a priest to get him to pray for someone. Praying for people who donate was never banned, so there is a chance that the parish was trying to raise money for something and it was using the offer of prayers to sweeten the deal, even though it has an obligation to pray for people when asked to pray for them.

  • User profile image
    Red5

    Shining Arcanine wrote:
    
    jsampsonPC wrote: I dunno, the Catholic church used to (maybe still does) tell people that for a price they can pray for family members to get out of Purgatory, and into Heaven. They actually had a list of sins with their punishment price beside them, too. Something like, if you are guilty of murder, then you could give the Priest $10 and he would pray for your forgiveness. This was a while back, when $10 was something

    Maybe people are starting to think, "Hey...this priest is no better than me, save for his sweet dress!" Which would cause the Church to find another way to raise money? I dunno.

    I know it doesn't take 100k to run a little website. Right now I have several sites which cost less than $100/year to run I bet that church isn't running with anything more than a local dsl for their priests to lookup football scores.


    That is not true. The Catholic church never said that. There was a time when it granted indulgences as a thankyou for donations when it wanted to renovate Vatican City (keep in mind that at that point in time, people were so poor that to donate to this would have been to donate all they had to the church), but the monk that was sent to collect donations was so overzealous about it that he acted like a salesperson. It was so bad that the practice of granting indulgences as a thankyou for money of any form was banned in the Catholic church, pretty much because of him.

    By the way, I would have to double check, but I believe that an indulgence is only able to prevent someone from going to hell before he goes to hell. If a person gets one after he goes to hell, it will not help him. Of course, I would need to double check, but I am pretty sure that once you go to hell, there is no leaving. For someone in purgatory though, an indulgence would be a get out of jail free card.


    My wife is Catholic.
    I am not.
    My children, undoubtedly will be raised Catholic.
    I have the hardest time with this stuff.

    "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment ..." (Hebrew 9:27)

    Doesn't this fly in the face of these so called indulgences?  I see nothing but contradiction.  Once you're dead, you're dead.  There is no get out of jail free card.  That sounds like preferential treatment that everyone does not have access to.

    d a m m i t, I know this will probably cause some of you to get quite emotional--so don't.  Since it sounds like the church has dropped this teaching--but I heard some people at church recently talking about it like it is still practiced.

    It's a topic within Catholicism that I don't think I will ever get.

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    jsampsonPC wrote:
    Shining, I never accused them of 'getting people outta hell.' I would be quick to admit that they don't clame to do that. I'm sorry if I gave that impression And no doubt, in matters of faith you will always have somebody, somewhere, abuse their power and deceive many sincere followers.


    After posting my previous post, I noticed a few inconsistencies with it and what you said so I revised it to be more accurate. I saw your reply only after I had revised it. Would you please re-read it, so that you have a better idea of what I wanted to say?

    By the way, I forgot to mention that there is no scientific method to figure out how many prayers are needed for any particular person. That is why a few hundred years ago, wealthy people would donation their fortunes in their wills to have a parish built in exchange for the parish's commitment to dedicate every mass said in it to them for what would reasonably (back then) be about three hundred years. Hence, why you will find many churches in Europe dedicating their masses to people who died in the 18th and 19th centuries. Church doctrine states that if the person to which those masses are dedicated gets out of purgatory, the masses will go towards getting other souls out of purgatory, even through they are not intended for them in particular, so whether or not three hundred years is overkill never has been an issue. Things have changed though. Today, you would probably have to be Bill Gates to get a parish to dedicate its masses toward you for a length of three hundred years, and even then it would still be difficult.

    Red5 wrote:
    
    Shining Arcanine wrote:
    jsampsonPC wrote: I dunno, the Catholic church used to (maybe still does) tell people that for a price they can pray for family members to get out of Purgatory, and into Heaven. They actually had a list of sins with their punishment price beside them, too. Something like, if you are guilty of murder, then you could give the Priest $10 and he would pray for your forgiveness. This was a while back, when $10 was something

    Maybe people are starting to think, "Hey...this priest is no better than me, save for his sweet dress!" Which would cause the Church to find another way to raise money? I dunno.

    I know it doesn't take 100k to run a little website. Right now I have several sites which cost less than $100/year to run I bet that church isn't running with anything more than a local dsl for their priests to lookup football scores.


    That is not true. The Catholic church never said that. There was a time when it granted indulgences as a thankyou for donations when it wanted to renovate Vatican City (keep in mind that at that point in time, people were so poor that to donate to this would have been to donate all they had to the church), but the monk that was sent to collect donations was so overzealous about it that he acted like a salesperson. It was so bad that the practice of granting indulgences as a thankyou for money of any form was banned in the Catholic church, pretty much because of him.

    By the way, I would have to double check, but I believe that an indulgence is only able to prevent someone from going to hell before he goes to hell. If a person gets one after he goes to hell, it will not help him. Of course, I would need to double check, but I am pretty sure that once you go to hell, there is no leaving. For someone in purgatory though, an indulgence would be a get out of jail free card.


    My wife is Catholic.
    I am not.
    My children, undoubtedly will be raised Catholic.
    I have the hardest time with this stuff.

    "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment ..." (Hebrew 9:27)

    Doesn't this fly in the face of these so called indulgences?  I see nothing but contradiction.  Once you're dead, you're dead.  There is no get out of jail free card.  That sounds like preferential treatment that everyone does not have access to.

    d a m m i t, I know this will probably cause some of you to get quite emotional--so don't.  Since it sounds like the church has dropped this teaching--but I heard some people at church recently talking about it like it is still practiced.

    It's a topic within Catholicism that I don't think I will ever get.


    Not everyone who dies goes to heaven and not everyone who dies goes to hell. There is a middle category, a place called purgatory, where if you were an average so-so person, your soul gets purified so that it can go to heaven. For a soul that is in purgatory, an indulgence would be a get out of jail free card, as upon receiving one, the soul will go to heaven, regardless of the amount of time the soul would have had to have waited otherwise. Indulgences can be given posthumorously. You do not have to be alive to get one; I do believe that you do have to be outside of hell though.

    By the way, anyone can get an indulgence. If you make a pilgrimage to Saint Peter's Basilica in the Vatican on Easter Sunday, you will be handed one, regardless of who you are. How is that for preferential treatment?

  • User profile image
    Red5

    Shining Arcanine wrote:
    
    Not everyone who dies goes to heaven and not everyone who dies goes to hell. There is a middle category, a place called purgatory, where if you were an average so-so person, your soul gets purified so that it can go to heaven. For a soul that is in purgatory, an indulgence would be a get out of jail free card, as upon receiving one, the soul will go to heaven, regardless of the amount of time the soul would have had to have waited otherwise. Indulgences can be given posthumorously. You do not have to be alive to get one; I do believe that you do have to be outside of hell though.

    By the way, anyone can get an indulgence. If you make a pilgrimage to Saint Peter's Basilica in the Vatican on Easter Sunday, you will be handed one, regardless of who you are. How is that for preferential treatment?


    I do understand what it is.
    But the basis for it's existence seems questionable.  Other than someone's say-so, are there any holy writings indicating this is how it happens?  It seems very sketchy at best.

    AH, but I need to come up with the money to get to St. Peter's.  Most of the population cannot afford such luxuries.  Including myself.

    I may not be able to respond anymore on this thread.  Busy morning tomorrow and then I am heading out west to WY for a week.
    No cell phone coverage.
    No internet.
    Just utter silence.
    Can't wait.

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    the logic behind indulgences isnt very much explainable

    indulgences are for purgatory and not hell, so if someone had no faith and got an indulgence it would be meaningless, both to him personally, as he doesn't believe, and theologically

    but assuming the church faithfully represents a sort of grace of god on earth, being favor with the church is like being in favor with god. when money was paid for indulgences, before the reformation, the rationale used was that if you are giving money to the church you are both, doing a selfless act, and showing good will to the goals of the church.

    the problem with this teaching would be that its hard to really establish connection between temporal institutions and spiritual matters.---this isn't because its impossible to say that the church follows god. but for instance, take the concept of the infallibility of the pope. --what has happened historically when the pope was considered to become blasphemous---simple, they named him an anti-pope--ie, not the real pope, but a fake one. so they have to have all of these workarounds for politics. but, hey, there is a catholic organization right now saying John Paull II and pope Benedict are anti-popes, i saw their website, though I'm not able to remember the url.

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    Red5 wrote:
    
    Shining Arcanine wrote:
    Not everyone who dies goes to heaven and not everyone who dies goes to hell. There is a middle category, a place called purgatory, where if you were an average so-so person, your soul gets purified so that it can go to heaven. For a soul that is in purgatory, an indulgence would be a get out of jail free card, as upon receiving one, the soul will go to heaven, regardless of the amount of time the soul would have had to have waited otherwise. Indulgences can be given posthumorously. You do not have to be alive to get one; I do believe that you do have to be outside of hell though.

    By the way, anyone can get an indulgence. If you make a pilgrimage to Saint Peter's Basilica in the Vatican on Easter Sunday, you will be handed one, regardless of who you are. How is that for preferential treatment?


    I do understand what it is.
    But the basis for it's existence seems questionable.  Other than someone's say-so, are there any holy writings indicating this is how it happens?  It seems very sketchy at best.

    AH, but I need to come up with the money to get to St. Peter's.  Most of the population cannot afford such luxuries.  Including myself.


    There are five sources of faith:
    • The Bible
    • The Tradition of the Church
    • The Magisterium of the Church
    • Writings of the Doctors of the Church
    • Reason Inspired by Faith
    Indulgences primarily fall under the Tradition of the Church and thhe Magisterium of the Church. You could probably find a few implicit Biblical references, but the Bible is just one of the many texts that  were created out of the church's tradition. The church made it the Christian cannon, but it never was meant to contain everything a person has to know, rather, it was only meant to an account of the most significant things that had happened before and during the time Christ spent on earth, so that they that they would not be forgotten. There are major things in Church doctrine that do come from the Bible though, such as the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, and the Great Commandment.

    By the way, pilgrimages are supposed to be difficult. That is why they give them to people who travel to Rome for Easter Sunday, because of the difficulty. You do not need an indulgence to have your sins forgiven though. There is something known as Unction (public repentence) in the church during which people, tell everyone what they did, live dressed in dirty sacks for thirty days, living off the generousity of the community as beggers, as a form of public repenting. At the end of that, there was a ritual that people would go though, and everything was forgiven.

    For obvious reasons, Unction was never particularly popular. Because Unction was not popular, for the first several centuries of the church, people would live with their sins and when they were going to die, they would call for a priest for Extreme Unction (which was later known as Last Rites, until Vatican II, when it was renamed to the Anointing of the Sick), where people would tell the priests what they did (being geniuely sorry, of course, otherwise they would be committing sacrilege and they would definately go to hell), the priest would annoint them with oil and they would be forgiven. If they died before the priest got there and the person intended to do what I mentioned previously, the anointing would ensure that they were forgiven.

    Later, around the 1300s if I recall, priests in Ireland began using a form of private confession though, which was intended to for the community, even though the community never learned what the person did. It became very popular, and for many decades it was referred to as Penance. After the ecuminical council of Vatican II, it was renamed to Reconciliation. I miss the terms Penance and Last Rites though, and I really miss the terms Unction and Extreme Unction. So, anyway, if you have committed any sins and you are geniuely sorry about them, you can go to a priest for confession, tell him what you did, have him tell you to do a certain task (e.g. pray x number of hail marys) and be forgiven. If you were to falsify what you say, I can say with great confidence that you will go to hell, as that would be sacriledge.

    Anyway, Catholics believe that God wants people to repent for what they did (e.g. ammending their lives so they do not sin again) and that he will forgive anyone who is sincerely sorry. It is not a stretch to say that he will forgive anyone who is geniuely sorry and who does not do any of the things in the above paragraph, but it always bette to see a priest, as priests have a special power to forgive people that they receive from the local Bishop (and in some rare cases, the Pope; although he does not do this often for reasons that I will not explain right now), and the Bishop has the authority to give the priests this power (among others, such as the ability to say mass) because of his magisterium, which he received from the Bishop who came before him, which the Bishop who came before him received from the Bishop who came before him... which the Apostles received from Christ, which can be found in the Bible.

    brian.shapiro wrote:
    the logic behind indulgences isnt very much explainable

    indulgences are for purgatory and not hell, so if someone had no faith and got an indulgence it would be meaningless, both to him personally, as he doesn't believe, and theologically

    but assuming the church faithfully represents a sort of grace of god on earth, being favor with the church is like being in favor with god. when money was paid for indulgences, before the reformation, the rationale used was that if you are giving money to the church you are both, doing a selfless act, and showing good will to the goals of the church.

    the problem with this teaching would be that its hard to really establish connection between temporal institutions and spiritual matters.---this isn't because its impossible to say that the church follows god. but for instance, take the concept of the infallibility of the pope. --what has happened historically when the pope was considered to become blasphemous---simple, they named him an anti-pope--ie, not the real pope, but a fake one. so they have to have all of these workarounds for politics. but, hey, there is a catholic organization right now saying John Paull II and pope Benedict are anti-popes, i saw their website, though I'm not able to remember the url.


    Those individuals who are claiming that Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II are antipopes are heretics and they can no longer call themselves Catholic. They have been implicitedly excommunicated from the church and if they do not repent, they will go to hell.

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