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Standards Guys!?

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  • User profile image
    sam-c

    My Predictions for 2007 is that Virtualization will continue to grow fast on Enterprises and even Small Business. What I want to ask is Can we see MS accepting more Standards? Browser Standards for Example. This is absolutely necassary in A WEB based Economy and 3G Mobiles. PS. Do you serve Java Coffee here? For Jaffa Oranges Get in Touch with me Sam in Jaffa

  • User profile image
    JohnAskew

    That would be W3bbo.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    The usual problem is, which web standards? Smiley

  • User profile image
    Zeus

    PaoloM wrote:
    The usual problem is, which web standards?
    What do you mean wich standards ... the W3C standards are THE standards ... as far as I know ....

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Zeus wrote:
    
    PaoloM wrote: The usual problem is, which web standards?
    What do you mean wich standards ... the W3C standards are THE standards ... as far as I know ....

    Actually, they are recommendations, not standards, but I meant something like... CSS2.1? CSS3? Or only the sanctioned ones? What about the draft proposals? Do you implement a "standard", when it's finalized or when enough products are supporting it?

  • User profile image
    fdisk

    PaoloM wrote:
    The usual problem is, which web standards?
    No, the rule is quite simple. If it is not economically beneficial to pursue standards, then don't waste the time on it. Makes gobs of cash, keep the media well fed, and ride the gravy train!

  • User profile image
    Sampy

    Companies make money. Supporting a standard just because you can doesn't make sense for anyone. You support a standard because you think it offers an advantage to you and your users. Happy users pay you for your software and then you get to eat.

    Wanting to make money isn't wrong. Not wanting to implement a standard isn't on face wrong.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    fdisk wrote:
    If it is not economically beneficial to pursue standards, then don't waste the time on it.

    You are absolutely right.

  • User profile image
    Zeus

    PaoloM wrote:
    
    fdisk wrote:If it is not economically beneficial to pursue standards, then don't waste the time on it.

    You are absolutely right.
    I think you guys are portraing the typical Microsoft attitude towards the web community. Internet Explorer has done such a bad job of supporting the proposed html and css standards that has made my job as a web developer soooooo much harder.

    In my world, things don't revolve entierly around money. I like to be proud of what I do, and if my websites are standards compliant, that makes me as a web developer feel good, and feel proud.

  • User profile image
    fdisk

    Zeus wrote:
    
    PaoloM wrote: 
    fdisk wrote: If it is not economically beneficial to pursue standards, then don't waste the time on it.

    You are absolutely right.
    I think you guys are portraing the typical Microsoft attitude towards the web community. Internet Explorer has done such a bad job of supporting the proposed html and css standards that has made my job as a web developer soooooo much harder.

    In my world, things don't revolve entierly around money. I like to be proud of what I do, and if my websites are standards compliant, that makes me as a web developer feel good, and feel proud.
    Pffpt. If it doesn't make them cash, they could care less. It's all about cash flow for them. They seem to think that makes them better individuals and the rest of us are idiots because we don't see things the same way. Personally, I would rather have a balance in my life.

    I'm just wondering when the layoffs are going to start en masse.

  • User profile image
    Sampy

    I'll let Bruce jump in here if he wants to talk about IE's support of certain standards over others. The IE team is in active development so the work is being done (even if I'm not sure what work is actually on the schedule). It takes time to do these things but we're getting there.

  • User profile image
    Zeus

    Sampy wrote:
    I'll let Bruce jump in here if he wants to talk about IE's support of certain standards over others. The IE team is in active development so the work is being done (even if I'm not sure what work is actually on the schedule). It takes time to do these things but we're getting there.
    I know Sampy, that IE has made great progress, and have been part of the camp supporting the IE development, rather than critisizing the IE dev team for not doing enough.

    I know that to support all the standards and making sure everything runs correctly is a big job, and have full respect for Bruce and the IE team.

    Looking forward to IE 8.0

    Big Smile

  • User profile image
    DMassy

    Sampy wrote:
    

    I'll let Bruce jump in here if he wants to talk about IE's support of certain standards over others. The IE team is in active development so the work is being done (even if I'm not sure what work is actually on the schedule). It takes time to do these things but we're getting there.



    IE7 showed a significant improvement over IE6 in support for CSS. There's clearly more work to be done though and the team is well aware of this. The team has repeatedly stated on the team blog at http://blogs.msdn.com/ie that it is committed towards improved standards support in future versions with a goal of easing the pain of developing content that will run in different browsers.
    There are lots of standard recommendations. Which ones do you want to see supported and why? That information will help to prioritise the work ahead of the team.

    See http://www.microsoft.com/interop/ where the need for interoperability is discussed. It's easy to assume that Microsoft is not supportive of standards but nothing could be further from the truth. The IE team understands the need here and is working towards improving support for the standard recommendations that make sense for web developers such as CSS and DOM.

    Thanks
    -Dave

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    JohnAskew wrote:
    That would be W3bbo.


    *grin*

    PaoloM wrote:
    The usual problem is, which web standards?


    PaoloM wrote:
    
    Zeus wrote:
    PaoloM wrote: The usual problem is, which web standards?
    What do you mean wich standards ... the W3C standards are THE standards ... as far as I know ....

    Actually, they are recommendations, not standards, but I meant something like... CSS2.1? CSS3? Or only the sanctioned ones? What about the draft proposals? Do you implement a "standard", when it's finalized or when enough products are supporting it?


    The community at large likes to call them "standards", and they are de-facto standards. But they are specifications.

    Likewise, many of the things put forward by the IETF aren't "standards" either, just detailed RFC specifications.

    There was a HTML standard though, back in the late 90s when the ISO formalised a variant of HTML4, I didn't think it went anywhere.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    W3bbo wrote:
    There was a HTML standard though, back in the late 90s when the ISO formalised a variant of HTML4, I didn't think it went anywhere.

    Yes, I remember that. I think it was 3.2 plus a couple clarifications...

    Good times Smiley

  • User profile image
    Sampy

    Thanks Dave Smiley

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Sampy wrote:
    

    Thanks Dave



    Who? I'm a Dave too.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Turning away from IE for a moment, a whole bunch of interesting stuff just became a recommendation this week, including XQuery 1.0, XPath 2.0 and XSLT 2.0. So, when are we seeing .Net support for that? Smiley

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