Coffeehouse Thread

32 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

AACS proving to be a waste of time

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    PerfectPhase
  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    PerfectPhase wrote:


    Its been a while back. He did not actually break the AACS, he just read the keys from memory and used it in a little Java program to decrypt it.

    But even if it was decrypted, the output is more than 40 Gb. Where is he going to store that? LOL.

    Perhapse make a special player for it?.

    Which is why I keep saying that there needs to be some sort of memory encryption.


    But I think AACS will turn people away from Vista. MS used to be in step with its customer base, but with DRM, I think MS stabbed its customers in the back to appease Hollywood.

  • User profile image
    PerfectPhase

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    
    PerfectPhase wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6301301.stm

    Stephen


    Its been a while back. He did not actually break the AACS, he just read the keys from memory and used it in a little Java program to decrypt it.


    Just saying AACS wasn't broken dosn't cut it, a security system has to be end to end so what's the point in putting all the work into the OS if the keys can be lifted from a crappy program at runtime, kind of defies the point.

    As to Vista (or any other OS) having the DRM in it, I have no issue with that, people want to use it then they are free to do so, at least they have the choice.  I on the other hand am quite happy to vote with my money and avoid all DRM content were ever possible.
     

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    PerfectPhase wrote:
    
    SecretSoftware wrote:
    PerfectPhase wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6301301.stm

    Stephen


    Its been a while back. He did not actually break the AACS, he just read the keys from memory and used it in a little Java program to decrypt it.


    Just saying AACS wasn't broken dosn't cut it, a security system has to be end to end so what's the point in putting all the work into the OS if the keys can be lifted from a crappy program at runtime, kind of defies the point.

    As to Vista (or any other OS) having the DRM in it, I have no issue with that, people want to use it then they are free to do so, at least they have the choice.  I on the other hand am quite happy to vote with my money and avoid all DRM content were ever possible.
     



    1) I agree. But that is not going to happen. Unless they can deliver HD to your eyeball directly, I dont think people will have  an end to end security system.

    2) No. There is no choice. You cant turn it off in Vista.

  • User profile image
    jamie

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    
    MS used to be in step with its customer base, but with DRM, I think MS stabbed its customers in the back to appease Hollywood.



    here's 150 people who agree with you
    http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2007/01/20/windows-vista-content-protection-twenty-questions-and-answers.aspx

  • User profile image
    PerfectPhase

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    
    2) No. There is no choice. You cant turn it off in Vista.


    Just because I can't remove it does not mean I have to use it.  I have Vista, I use it every day.  I have no issues playing any of my (Non-DRM) Hi-def content.  I have yet to even notice it's there.

    What I won't do is buy HD-DVD/BlueRay discs, this is where the revenue is created and this is where I'll make my stand on the issue.

  • User profile image
    Massif

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    
    2) No. There is no choice. You cant turn it off in Vista.


    See, I'm confused. Surely it's off right until you try to watch a film protected by said DRM?

    In which case it if was off you wouldn't be able to watch the film.

    I don't get it, are all the freedom types annoyed that MS didn't try to dictate terms to the movie companies regarding DRM. (i.e. say "we're not going to support it, do something else.") So when they want something, they're happy for MS to make use of their almost monopoly, but if they don't want it they're going to cry foul?

    DRM isn't Microsoft's fight, if you don't want it, don't buy into it.

    I wish the studios would abandon this restrictive plan, give me cheap movies conveniently and I'll buy them - make me jump through hoops and I won't. Most of the movie industry's output sucks anyway. (Same goes for music labels, but it looks like they're starting to wise up.)

    Plus any copy protection like this is flawed from the start, as once someone has your bits in their hands, you're going to lose control - it's just a matter of time.

  • User profile image
    Stebet

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    Its been a while back. He did not actually break the AACS, he just read the keys from memory and used it in a little Java program to decrypt it.

    But even if it was decrypted, the output is more than 40 Gb. Where is he going to store that? LOL.

    Perhapse make a special player for it?.

    Which is why I keep saying that there needs to be some sort of memory encryption.


    But I think AACS will turn people away from Vista. MS used to be in step with its customer base, but with DRM, I think MS stabbed its customers in the back to appease Hollywood.


    Memory Encryption doesn't matter. The key has to be non-encrypted in memory or registers at some point in time. It's just a matter of finding out when.

    40GB's is just to store the HD-DVD unaltered. The first thing i'd do is take my HD-DVD's and transcode them to 720p WMV-HD so i could watch them on my laptop when i'm not at home or on my 360 if it wasn't located in the living room. Or to simply be able to stream the movie to other media players/computers around the house.

    The whole idea of DRM is just stupid i.m.o. If people really really want to steal movies/music they WILL find a way to do it. And if the people don't find a way to do it themselves they will find someone else to do it for them.

    It also continuously amazes my how much the MPAA/RIAA/Hollywood is prepared to hold back innovation because of their inability to spot new markets and opportunities. Just think how much more money MTV/Microsoft/BBC and others could make if these stupid exclusive broadcasting rights/region encodings etc. weren't in effect all over the world and people outside the US could buy music from the music stores.

    Just think if we could have just one iTunes Music Store for the whole world to have access to (instead Apple has to make deals in every single country it wants to set up a store for), if everyone in the world could have access to the Movies and TV content on Xbox Live. I'm willing to bet piracy would plummet in the process. If i want to watch Lost or Prison Break without having to wait 6 months for an episode because the local TV stations can't be bothered to show them at the same time they're broadcast in the US i simply have to download the show. Not to mention if i want it in HD (which is non-existant for broadcast TV in Iceland).

    Also, us here in Iceland are totally screwed over on pretty much everything, simply because we are considered such a small market (population of 300.000). Setting up a iTunes music store, URGE, Xbox Live or anything similar is just considered a waste of money. Also, since there is pretty much just one major label that releases DVD's and music in Iceland it is wayyy overpriced (think 30$ for a standard newly released music CD, 40 - 50$ for a newly released DVD).

    And these companies really wonder why people try anything to get around those copy protections and region encodings?

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    PerfectPhase wrote:
    
    SecretSoftware wrote:
    2) No. There is no choice. You cant turn it off in Vista.


    Just because I can't remove it does not mean I have to use it.  I have Vista, I use it every day.  I have no issues playing any of my (Non-DRM) Hi-def content.  I have yet to even notice it's there.

    What I won't do is buy HD-DVD/BlueRay discs, this is where the revenue is created and this is where I'll make my stand on the issue.



    People are seeing glitches whe playing even simple streams.

    You can play the same exact stream in an XP machine, and it plays fine. But in Vista, its playing in slow motion + hiccups, which makes the experiance not so good.

    But you have to understand that, MS made Vista into a HD content delivery system. That is the entire point of DRM.

    It impacts performance of the system. and this whole thing is not sitting well with people.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Massif wrote:
    I don't get it, are all the freedom types annoyed that MS didn't try to dictate terms to the movie companies regarding DRM. (i.e. say "we're not going to support it, do something else.") So when they want something, they're happy for MS to make use of their almost monopoly, but if they don't want it they're going to cry foul?

    Plus it wouldn't have worked. What percentage of people will actually watch HDDVD or Bluray content on their PC? Not a lot. MS allegedly has a monopoly in the OS market, but they have only a tiny tiny marketshare in the digital media playback market.

    If MS would say to the studios/MPAA "we're not going to support it, do something else" most likely the reply would be "we don't care". MS doesn't have that kind of leverage in that market.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    People are seeing glitches whe playing even simple streams.

    You can play the same exact stream in an XP machine, and it plays fine. But in Vista, its playing in slow motion + hiccups, which makes the experiance not so good.

    And your proof that this is caused by the DRM subsystem and not by crappy drivers or something else is...

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    Massif wrote:
    
    SecretSoftware wrote:
    2) No. There is no choice. You cant turn it off in Vista.


    See, I'm confused. Surely it's off right until you try to watch a film protected by said DRM?

    In which case it if was off you wouldn't be able to watch the film.

    I don't get it, are all the freedom types annoyed that MS didn't try to dictate terms to the movie companies regarding DRM. (i.e. say "we're not going to support it, do something else.") So when they want something, they're happy for MS to make use of their almost monopoly, but if they don't want it they're going to cry foul?

    DRM isn't Microsoft's fight, if you don't want it, don't buy into it.

    I wish the studios would abandon this restrictive plan, give me cheap movies conveniently and I'll buy them - make me jump through hoops and I won't. Most of the movie industry's output sucks anyway. (Same goes for music labels, but it looks like they're starting to wise up.)

    Plus any copy protection like this is flawed from the start, as once someone has your bits in their hands, you're going to lose control - it's just a matter of time.


    MS could have put DRM into a Media Center edition of Vista only . But not in the other editions. That way people will be at least somewhat happy.
    And really, what this example has demonstrated, is that hackers will crack it. Its fun for them, its a challenge . But it will make my grand- mom and your grand-mom suffer if they wish to enjoy their movies while traveling or else where. You cant really make for Self backups for the cases if  your DVD gets broken or scratched or what have you.

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    Sven Groot wrote:
    
    SecretSoftware wrote:People are seeing glitches whe playing even simple streams.

    You can play the same exact stream in an XP machine, and it plays fine. But in Vista, its playing in slow motion + hiccups, which makes the experiance not so good.

    And your proof that this is caused by the DRM subsystem and not by crappy drivers or something else is...


    Because people have installed latest Vista drivers, and still the playback is terrible, and slow because of all the encryptio/decryption that is going on.

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    Sven Groot wrote:
    
    Massif wrote:I don't get it, are all the freedom types annoyed that MS didn't try to dictate terms to the movie companies regarding DRM. (i.e. say "we're not going to support it, do something else.") So when they want something, they're happy for MS to make use of their almost monopoly, but if they don't want it they're going to cry foul?

    Plus it wouldn't have worked. What percentage of people will actually watch HDDVD or Bluray content on their PC? Not a lot. MS allegedly has a monopoly in the OS market, but they have only a tiny tiny marketshare in the digital media playback market.

    If MS would say to the studios/MPAA "we're not going to support it, do something else" most likely the reply would be "we don't care". MS doesn't have that kind of leverage in that market.


    Agreed!

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    MS could have put DRM into a Media Center edition of Vista only . But not in the other editions. That way people will be at least somewhat happy.

    Really? You think if MS would have said "you can only watch "premium" HD content in Vista Home Premium and Ultimate, other editions won't work" the response would've been good? Even you aren't that naive.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    
    Sven Groot wrote: 
    SecretSoftware wrote: People are seeing glitches whe playing even simple streams.

    You can play the same exact stream in an XP machine, and it plays fine. But in Vista, its playing in slow motion + hiccups, which makes the experiance not so good.

    And your proof that this is caused by the DRM subsystem and not by crappy drivers or something else is...


    Because people have installed latest Vista drivers, and still the playback is terrible, and slow because of all the encryptio/decryption that is going on.

    And the latest Vista drivers are automatically bug-free? I get audio glitches quite often with the latest Creative drivers. The older drivers were actually a lot better. And I don't get glitches at all with the on-board Realtek card in exactly the same machine.

    I've not experienced playback is actually slow. Neither is CPU usage any higher in Vista than it is in XP when playing media (and the glitches seem primarily caused by waiting for IO (e.g. if the second hard disk is shut down and needs to spin up it can cause an audio glitch), not heavy CPU usage.

  • User profile image
    Massif

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    

    MS could have put DRM into a Media Center edition of Vista only . But not in the other editions. That way people will be at least somewhat happy.
    And really, what this example has demonstrated, is that hackers will crack it. Its fun for them, its a challenge . But it will make my grand- mom and your grand-mom suffer if they wish to enjoy their movies while traveling or else where. You cant really make for Self backups for the cases if  your DVD gets broken or scratched or what have you.


    You're suggesting that an entirely seperate graphics path be implemented in any version of Vista supporting media centre? (As I understand it the entire graphics pipeline from drive to monitor is supposed to be protected, graphics drivers, hardware the lot.) That's so not going to happen for obvious and good reasons.

    But I agree that DRM sucks not simply as a way to prevent copying, but as a business model. MS have done their best to ensure it doesn't affect people, and I haven't seen any evidence that DRM does degrade the performance (and it'll only use CPU cycles when it's active.).

    Like I said DRM isn't MS's fight, it's ours (the consumers). Don't whinge to Microsoft because they made it possible to watch HD content that's protected, whinge at the providers for restricting your rights.

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    Sven Groot wrote:
    
    SecretSoftware wrote:MS could have put DRM into a Media Center edition of Vista only . But not in the other editions. That way people will be at least somewhat happy.

    Really? You think if MS would have said "you can only watch "premium" HD content in Vista Home Premium and Ultimate, other editions won't work" the response would've been good? Even you aren't that naive.


    I meant to say that the AACS stuff should have been in just one edition, and execluded from the others. That is to say you only have the DRM stuff in a version of Vista that is for media centers.

    For PCs let it be like XP, without this stuff.

Conversation locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.