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My HD DVD Blue Ray Problem

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  • User profile image
    velkymx

    I was reading today about the BackupHDDVD program over on Engadget and how they guy who wrote the application to allow people to back up their HD content to other media. It got me thinking.

    I already know the idea behind the upgrade is two fold, both higher resolution images, but also to make use re-buy all of our movies again (for me that would cost me around $5000 USD). Does anyone else feel like this is a bit of robbery? I’ve already forked over money to purchase the movies, sometimes twice - once for the VHS and once for the DVD.

    I think this is really a problem for technology in general. Especially intangibles. These include movies, audio and even applications. I am totally confused as to why we are constantly being forced to purchase new versions of things that do the exact same thing as the older version?

    DVDs are one thing. I get it that the picture is way better on these movies, but how about a trade-in discount. I mean, if you are going to lock me out of using MY DVD the way that I want, maybe you can update to the HD-DVD by trading your DVD and getting the HD-DVD for $5. After all, they are really reselling me almost the exact same thing!

    Audio is another problem – but you all know about the MP3/DRM problem.

    Software is another. I am going to talk about just two applications to illustrate this. Adobe Photoshop and Quickbooks. Photoshop and Quickbooks are both old programs. I remember getting a copy of Photoshop 10 years ago – same goes with Quickbooks. Both applications though are basically the same thing. After version 7 of Photoshop there hasn’t really been any significant update to Photoshop. You can do everything in 7 that you can in CS2 and it uses less system resources. What a deal. Quickbooks is the same thing – only they don’t update and fix their crappy code so it forces you to buy a new version every couple of years! Come on – accounting hasn’t changed in 100 years.

    Or printer ink that expires after a couple of months!

    So does this mean give away everything? Not at all!!! I am say lets make it worth my while. Let’s think about the consumer instead of just how to screw them. Adobe you better be scared as applications like Paint.NET (http://www.getpaint.net) keep coming out. I personally think that both the MPAA and the RIAA have been fleecing the American consumer for years!!  

    I think as long as you try and screw the public you will loose the battle between the hackers and the technology. Programs like DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, winLAME, and even BackupHDDVD will allow people to copy and use their own – and I stress THEIR OWN – product as they see fit. If I buy it and physically have the disc, it is MINE.

    If you have a legitimate update or something new for me then I will buy it! I have an Intel 2 Core Duo processor because the benefit of owning it helps me. But do I want to buy songs I own or replace my existing DVD collection with HD DVDs? Hell no. That would require me to replace all of my DVD Players and my TVs. Or do I want to purchase Adobe Photoshop CS2 or Norton Anti-Virus – where little if any changes have been made? Hundreds of dollars. For what? I am a tech nut, but right now I do not see the benefits of such a huge investment.

    I think the technology industry needs to take a hard look at their deceptive and often unfair business practices. These corporations need to remember that in the long run we, the consumers, run the show (one way or another).

    Full rant and source: http://www.synergymx.com/stuff_detail.asp?ID=139

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    The fair use law does not apply to encrypted media.

    So, you cant legally make a backup of your HD-Media, because the media is encrypted.

    But again, you cant really legislate against technology.

    And people will vote with their dollars. It is the consumers that make or break companies after all.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    SecretSoftware wrote:
    And people will vote with their dollars. It is the consumers that make or break companies after all.

    Exactly. I really hope that consumers will vote with their brains and reject another useless format war. The future is in downloadable/online content, screw HD plastic! Smiley

  • User profile image
    ddewbofh

    I'm intrigued by the HDTV content offered on Xbox marketplace, looks like a really good way to get hi-def stuff without having to subscribe to the, at best sub-standard, HDTV channels here in Sweden. Something like Xbox Live  Marketplace or even the OnDemand network is the way of the future. Smiley

    PS And yes, I am aware of the insane bandwidth requirements for HDTV over teh intarweb but here that's not really a problem, cheap household fiber at 100/10 mbit is pretty much becoming a standard in the larger cities. Hopefully it won't take long until it's more common-place.

  • User profile image
    Secret​Software

    PaoloM wrote:
    
    SecretSoftware wrote:And people will vote with their dollars. It is the consumers that make or break companies after all.

    Exactly. I really hope that consumers will vote with their brains and reject another useless format war. The future is in downloadable/online content, screw HD plastic!


    I agree. But the problem is that only small percentage of people have high speed internet (in the world).

    I personally want my Fiberoptic line right about now, if the prices would go down significantly.

  • User profile image
    Yggdrasil

    velkymx wrote:
    I already know the idea behind the upgrade is two fold, both higher resolution images, but also to make use re-buy all of our movies again (for me that would cost me around $5000 USD). Does anyone else feel like this is a bit of robbery? I’ve already forked over money to purchase the movies, sometimes twice - once for the VHS and once for the DVD.


    While I agree with your rant in general - about diminishing profits and about planned obsolescence and DRM prohibiting personal backups - I don't see what exactly is the problem here.

    I have a movie on DVD. Now it's released on HDDVD. Who's twisting my arm to buy it again? I can still watch my DVD and I can even find new cheap VHS players these days, so even my 25 year-old media is still accessible.
    When I bought my DVD, I knew what I was getting - the movie I wanted with the features advertised at the given quality for a DVD movie.
    So 5 years later the same movie comes out in HD-DVD with more features and better resolution. Am I entitled to the new product just because I bought the old one when it was available? It's a new product, not a fix to the one I already own.  I can still watch my old DVDs, I can do anything that I did before HD-DVD came out - so what's the issue here?
    You want everything on HD-DVD? Buy it on HD-DVD. Should there be a trade-in agreement for old DVD movies? Sure, I'd love that. It's be a great incentive to move people over to HD-DVD. But are we, as DVD purchasers, entitled to an HD-DVD copy of our movies? No, I don't think so.

  • User profile image
    mstefan

    Programs like DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, winLAME, and even BackupHDDVD will allow people to copy and use their own – and I stress THEIR OWN – product as they see fit. If I buy it and physically have the disc, it is MINE.

    Yes and no. The physical media is yours, but the content on that media is licensed to you, you don't own it. Your rights are limited to those which are granted to you by the license holder.

    As for HD-DVD and Blu-ray, I wouldn't recommend that anyone buy either format. First of all, they're ridiculously priced at the moment and its unclear which is going to become the dominant format. At this time it looks like Blu-ray is going to be the winner, but its still relatively early in the game.

    You're also making the general assumption that either format will become dominant. Look at SACD (Super Audio CD) as an example of a high-definition format with DRM that is effectively a complete failure. It came out around 2000, 2001 and now has about 4,000 titles or so, most of them classical and jazz. Not putting down classical music aficionados, but that's not exactly mainstream adoption.

    Bottom line, before you get too wound up, hold off, sit back and wait to see what happens. I can guarantee you that most folks today are not in a rush to replace their DVD library at $28 a pop, so I wouldn't become too concerned at this point.

  • User profile image
    irascian

    mstefan wrote:
    
    As for HD-DVD and Blu-ray, I wouldn't recommend that anyone buy either format. First of all, they're ridiculously priced at the moment and its unclear which is going to become the dominant format.


    I hardly think a US import price that's about the same as the discounted DVD price is "ridiculously priced", or did you mean the players. £130 for an XBox 360 player is an absolute steal. And remember when looking at those HD-DVD or BluRay decks that they're also "upscaling" DVD players (albeit region restricted) and CD players too.

    For me it's a choice between "wasting" money on a standard edition DVD or getting something at six times the resolution for the same price. No contest! And sure I may have bought into the "wrong" format but I've got over 100 movies in high definition right now and those aren't going to go away.

    The difference in picture quality isn't the same as the difference between standard DVD and VHS, and there isn't the Wow factor that the move to DVD gave us. But I've got to say that on a 50" plasma and a set about 6 feet away the difference is VERY visible and whilst I didn't initially see a great difference, I now spot a difference when going back to playing standard DVDs - they just don't have the same thrill as an HD-DVD.

  • User profile image
    mstefan

    irascian wrote:
    I hardly think a US import price that's about the same as the discounted DVD price is "ridiculously priced", or did you mean the players.


    I meant the discs. Here in the United States, a standard movie DVD will typically cost you somewhere between $12 and $18. A movie in HD-DVD format (what few of them there are) will typically cost you somewhere between $28 and $38. All for an improvement in picture quality that, as you point out yourself, is more incremental than anything else.
     
    Right now, for a player that costs $800 (or more) and an extra $10-$15 per title, watching it had better be damn close to a religious experience. And that's not the case with HD-DVD or Blu-ray. Not by a long shot.

  • User profile image
    irascian

    mstefan wrote:
    

    I meant the discs. Here in the United States, a standard movie DVD will typically cost you somewhere between $12 and $18. A movie in HD-DVD format (what few of them there are) will typically cost you somewhere between $28 and $38. All for an improvement in picture quality that, as you point out yourself, is more incremental than anything else.
     


    I struggle to believe you!

    If I check my US supplier I see a typical HD-DVD price of $26 (sure there are some at $33 but those are all European or Japanese imports). When I go to look at pre-orders for DVD I see the exact same prices (OK so maybe a dollar difference here and there).

    Sites I used for price checking: http://www.movietyme.com

    So, over to Amazon and let's try a few titles that I've bought in the last few weeks which are available on both formats. What I typically see is a 20% mark-up (tops!) for a six times higher definition format - not the 100% mark-up you are claiming! 

    Superman Returns DVD: $23 HD-DVD $28
    Clerks II DVD: $20  HD-DVD $20
    Corpse Bride DVD: $18 HD-DVD $20
    Mission Impossible III DVD: $24 HD-DVD $28
    Forbidden Planet DVD: $20 HD-DVD $20


    As for your complaint that there are only a "few" titles I have over 100 HD-DVDs - I guess it all boils down to what your idea of "a few" is! With Universal already having announced that it has 100 new titles planned for this year (that's just ONE studio) I'm frankly struggling to understand your objections!

    Now I'll agree with you that HD-DVD/Blu Ray have got off to a poor start in terms of sales. But let's not muddy the waters by claiming the whole thing is a huge rip-off, or that sales are low because of the high prices, or that people who've dipped their toe in the water haven't been VERY pleased with the results. The low sales are down to confusion in the market place and the fact it's a fairly high risk because there are two competing formats and nobody knows which one will win.

    But for those of us who love movies the new formats are great, and I for one will not be rushing back to standard DVD any time soon where I can buy the same title on one of the high def formats.

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    1. You do not have to re-buy all you movies in HD-DVD format.  I still have several movies only on VHS format.  VHS still works. I can still watch my movies.

    2. Companies exist to make money.  Period.  They do not exist to make you happy. They do not owe you anything. This is why they like new formats; people will foolishly buy everything over again, paying for something they already have, without the overhead of having to fund a new movie.


    Summary -- it you don't want to spend any more money you don't have to. If you feel compelled to buy all the latest technology you have to pay the price, the companies producing all the new stuff don't owe you anything, but they will use all their advertising pstchology to make you feel that you must have it all.

    Or you can decide to get off the treadmill and stick with your old DVDs.


    Herbie

  • User profile image
    mstefan

    irascian wrote:
    I struggle to believe you!


    When I looked up the titles that you mention, your pricing is a little off. For example, the difference between Mission Impossible 3 formats on Amazon is about $8 ($19.99 v. $27.95), Corpse Bride is about $6 ($13.95 v. $19.95) and so on. It's not nearly the "push" that you're making it out to be. By the way, where you really get hammered is with the collections. For example, the Mission Impossible collection on DVD format is $40.99; in HD-DVD format, it's $69.95.

    The real question is, what are you actually buying again at increased prices? A slight increase in resolution and audio quality that requires a high-end home theater system and a 125 cm. or larger plasma display?

    If you have the disposable income to re-purchase all of your DVD titles, then that's wonderful. But the reality is, there's no real justification for your typical end-user to go out and replace their DVDs with HD-DVDs like there was when they replaced their VHS tapes.

    For either HD format to go "mainstream", the cost of a deck has to drop by about $600 and the titles have to be closer in price to their predecessors (a $1-2 difference, not a $6-8 difference per disc). And then there is the DRM issues that may or may not come up. So far, things like key revocation and downconversion (image constraint) haven't seen any real-world use, and the impact is largely theoretical at this point.

    If you're happy with HD-DVD, that's great. But it's pretty clear that the general public is not impressed. Neither the decks nor the discs are flying off the shelves.

  • User profile image
    velkymx

    Companies that are not about the happiness of their customers often find themselves out of business.

  • User profile image
    irascian

    mstefan wrote:
    
    irascian wrote: I struggle to believe you!


    When I looked up the titles that you mention, your pricing is a little off. 


    I've only just seen your reply. I have no idea why you think my pricing is a little off since the prices I quoted were taken direct from Amazon on the day I quoted them

    mstefan wrote:
    
    For example, the difference between Mission Impossible 3 formats on Amazon is about $8 ($19.99 v. $27.95), Corpse Bride is about $6 ($13.95 v. $19.95) and so on. It's not nearly the "push" that you're making it out to be. By the way, where you really get hammered is with the collections. For example, the Mission Impossible collection on DVD format is $40.99; in HD-DVD format, it's $69.95.


    How many times to people have to tell you. Nobody's forcing you to rebuy any titles.

    mstefan wrote:
    
    A slight increase in resolution and audio quality that requires a high-end home theater system and a 125 cm. or larger plasma display?


    How can you describe a picture that is more than six times the resolution (number of pixels) as as "a slight increase"?!!!! Maths doesn't seem to be your strong point.

    mstefan wrote:
    
    If you have the disposable income to re-purchase all of your DVD titles, then that's wonderful. But the reality is, there's no real justification for your typical end-user to go out and replace their DVDs with HD-DVDs like there was when they replaced their VHS tapes.

    Again, who said you had to replace all your DVDs. The new hi-def players will happily play your old DVDs and upscale them too. You're complaining about being given an option that you can happily ignore but still gives an improvement (through upscaling your old DVDs)???!!!

    mstefan wrote:
    
    For either HD format to go "mainstream", the cost of a deck has to drop by about $600 and the titles have to be closer in price to their predecessors (a $1-2 difference, not a $6-8 difference per disc). And then there is the DRM issues that may or may not come up. So far, things like key revocation and downconversion (image constraint) haven't seen any real-world use, and the impact is largely theoretical at this point.


    PLEASE do just the basics of a bit of research before making ridiculous claims. If players were to "drop by about $600" they'd have a negative cost.

    NOBODY is forcing you to buy any high definition formats. Those of us who've bought into the format are loving it, as evidenced by numerous posts on the usual forums (highdefdigest.com, avforums.com etc).

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