Coffeehouse Thread

26 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

Mac to Vista - One Reporters Story

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    Ray6

    Sorry .. double post ... Perplexed

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    k2t0f12d wrote:
    
    corona_coder wrote:I went into a Walmart and Staples after we were able to declare Victory at Best Buy and asked them about Vista.  Walmart said I was the only person to ask about it.  Staples said I was the only one that came in today and mentioned Vista.  I made the comment " So Vista has been a flop"  He said " pretty much".


    I can believe it.  I'm not saying its true, just that its possible there is a place where people weren't waiting in line to grab Vista hot off the shelf.  Windows longevity is in its business model first and product second.  Microsoft will offer deals that will make sure the new OS is tied to new hardware sales with all major computer dealers.  Maybe a Microsoft emp can verify this, but it doesn't seem to me that off-the-shelf box sales are the meat and potatoes of Microsoft's game.  If it were, the prerelease hype would have been more along the lines of a Swartzenegger film.  The real proof of success in the product will be its real gross versus its projected gross.  Even if it doesn't perform as well Microsoft expects, I have a strong suspicision it won't be in the red.  On the other hand I'm not convinced it will be to XP what XP was to its predessors.


    Well of course its true. MS has always shifted most of this stuff through the box builders, not the retail chains, which is what the rather exhorbitant retail prices are designed to encourage.
    It won't have as much of a bang as XP because XP was such massive improvement with a lot more candy on top. Here, the improvements are where folk can't see 'em.

    But in the end, the result will be the same, the only question really is how long it will take. XP has pretty much taken over the market; all this will do is take over XP.

    Meanwhile, instead of looking at their own shortcomings as to why Linux isn't making a dent in the desktop market, the community is standing outside shops, making Linux community as a whole, look strange.


  • User profile image
    k2t0f12d

    Ray6 wrote:
    But in the end, the result will be the same, the only question really is how long it will take. XP has pretty much taken over the market; all this will do is take over XP.


    The time it takes to replace XP would need to be less then the time it takes to develop the next version of Windows.  A lot of people skipped Millennium Edition and went from 98 or 98SE straight to XP.  Its very obvious the impact that XP had on Microsoft's customers.  By that time everyone was so used to the weirdness with which preXP Windows were capable it was novel to have an OS that was actually really hard to crash.  Vista could be a tertiary edition if it doesn't proliferate faster then it takes to make Vienna.

    Ray6 wrote:
    Meanwhile, instead of looking at their own shortcomings as to why Linux isn't making a dent in the desktop market, the community is standing outside shops, making Linux community as a whole, look strange.


    To address both camps on this matter, why must Linux replace Microsoft as the most popular desktop operating system?  They are two software systems based on disparate goals.  Windows is a product that its company makes to target a market and generate income and satisfy its shareholders.  The fact that it is a computer operating system is incidental.  I could say a lot about how that predication effects the development of the Windows software, but most of that is self-evident.  What matters in the argument I'm making now is that Windows must sell or die.  If it were not so, Microsoft could take the risk of depending on Window's quality alone to sell itself instead of making licensed agreements with manufacturers to ensure their software is sold with as many new computers as possible.  The Linux kernel and the software that runs on its system are made in incremental developments by computer enthusiasts that share similar ideas about software development.  Linux need not proliferate to survive.  It will be used and developed regardless of how many non-technical users get it and use it.

    `Year of the Linux Desktop'?  Who cares?  All that would really matter is when it is the Year of YOUR Linux Desktop.

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    k2t0f12d wrote:
    

    The time it takes to replace XP would need to be less then the time it takes to develop the next version of Windows.  A lot of people skipped Millennium Edition and went from 98 or 98SE straight to XP.  Its very obvious the impact that XP had on Microsoft's customers.  By that time everyone was so used to the weirdness with which preXP Windows were capable it was novel to have an OS that was actually really hard to crash.  Vista could be a tertiary edition if it doesn't proliferate faster then it takes to make Vienna.


    I don't see why this is the case. The bottom line for MS and its OEM partners is to keep folk buying PCS, and even with the delays caused by 'hanging on for Vista', they're still doing that in ever greater numbers.  People here are obsessed with retail, MS isn't. If they were that bothered about it, then they would price Vista at an affordable level.
    [/quote]

    k2t0f12d wrote:
    
    To address both camps on this matter, why must Linux replace Microsoft as the most popular desktop operating system?


    Don't ask me. I know it won't and common sense should tell anyone that this isn't going to happen. There are some sections of the Linux community that seem obsessed with the whole idea that they must overthrow Microsoft, and are willing to alienate potential customers to do it. That's the problem I have with a lot of the so called enthusiasts; are they really pro-Linux, or are they just anti-MS? Certainly explains some of the bizarre antics I've heard about during the Vista launch.

    I keep quoting this, but I think its really important:

    "Microsoft doesn't have to lose for us to win." When Jobs learned this, it was a turning point for Apple. And until the Linux community learns this, then the platform is going nowhere on the desktop.

    k2t0f12d wrote:
    
    They are two software systems based on disparate goals.  Windows is a product that its company makes to target a market and generate income and satisfy its shareholders.  The fact that it is a computer operating system is incidental.  I could say a lot about how that predication effects the development of the Windows software, but most of that is self-evident.  What matters in the argument I'm making now is that Windows must sell or die.  If it were not so, Microsoft could take the risk of depending on Window's quality alone to sell itself instead of making licensed agreements with manufacturers to ensure their software is sold with as many new computers as possible.  The Linux kernel and the software that runs on its system are made in incremental developments by computer enthusiasts that share similar ideas about software development.  Linux need not proliferate to survive.  It will be used and developed regardless of how many non-technical users get it and use it.


    That's the problem. What you describe used to be the case, but in the last few years, things have unfortunately changed for the worse. Linux seems to have been coerced by a hardcore of anti-MS fanatics that have been using it as a political spear to stab at Redmond with. And what will happen, when the spear breaks? Simple. They will find another OS/cause/software application to leach onto (probably the MacOSX).

    You are right, the market share of Linux really makes no difference, but when you're actually more concerned with beating Microsoft than actually running Linux, then it will make a difference.



  • User profile image
    k2t0f12d

    Ray6 wrote:
    You are right, the market share of Linux really makes no difference, but when you're actually more concerned with beating Microsoft than actually running Linux, then it will make a difference.


    Hmm, I'm not a fan of Microsoft by any stretch of the imagination.  By the same token, I don't see Linux based operating systems as something that should `beat' Microsoft, either.  However, I do not like things I've read about the business practices of Microsoft.  I've been following the Comes v. Microsoft case in Iowa, and have read some testimony on the part of a witness for the Plaintiff who was a sales representative of Digital Research that marketed a competitive product to MS-DOS in the late eighties to early ninties.  The allegation is that Microsoft strong-armed the OEMs through restrictive license agreements that recompensed Microsoft per processor, not per sale of MS-DOS.  It went into considerable detail as to particular behavior of the market between the publishers of operating systems and the OEMs, but the punchline was that Digital Research's DOS couldn't compete in the market because Microsoft had a stranglehold on the OEMs through their licensing rather then any superiority of MS-DOS.  There are other allegations being made of anti-competitive behavior such as using extensions to bind other formats and software systems to Microsoft operating systems and falsified error messages to discredit interoperability with competitor's systems.  After reading that material I wondered to myself what the computer market would be like today if Microsoft had not been allowed to make the sale of their operating system implicit to the sale of a computer on a per processor basis.  Or are the Plaintiff's making a case entirely based upon FUD?

    Comes v. Microsoft

  • User profile image
    Sourcecode

    PaoloM wrote:
    
    corona_coder wrote: 
    PaoloM wrote: 
    corona_coder wrote: Nice article.  Once again, evidence that Windows is done.

    Indeed. We shipped yesterday, didn't you notice?


    I went into a Walmart and Staples after we were able to declare Victory at Best Buy and asked them about Vista.  Walmart said I was the only person to ask about it.  Staples said I was the only one that came in today and mentioned Vista.  I made the comment " So Vista has been a flop"  He said " pretty much".

    Considering your history of lies, you'll forgive me if I don't put too much faith in your words...


    Few rush out to buy new Windows Vista

    EDIT:

    "Microsoft shares slipped 5 cents to close at $30.48 on the Nasdaq Stock Market."

    A major launch with a slip in stock can't be all good? I would think an event like this would up the stock.






  • User profile image
    Yggdrasil

    k2t0f12d wrote:
    Hmm, I'm not a fan of Microsoft by any stretch of the imagination.  By the same token, I don't see Linux based operating systems as something that should `beat' Microsoft, either. 

     
    I agree with you. In fact, most people here on C9 agree with you. The incessant arguments here have never been about the pros and cons of Windows or Linux, seeing as most people here have at the very least tried out both. The problem here is entirely caused by a succession of trolls, starting with beer28 and continuing to various others, whether they are only spiritual successors or actual alter-egos of the same Chris Rondot is irrelevant. The point is that these trolls inevitably turn the conversation into anti-MS blathering, which in turn brings out the worst in the people opposing them. Few here are actual MS fanboys, but even those who aren't find themselves coming out as such when confronting such obvious bullsh!t. This, in turn, causes idiots on the other side of the fence to retaliate with anti-Linux FUD, and the whole cycle causes another C9 regular to leave in disgust, every couple of months. And that's a crying shame.


    [quote  user="k2t0f12d"]The allegation is that Microsoft strong-armed the OEMs through restrictive license agreements[/quote]
     
    I wouldn't be surprised at all. From what you hear, it seems a lot of that went on in Microsoft in the 80's and 90's. Without downplaying that issue, however (and if still relevant, prosecuting that issue) that doesn't necessarily say anything about Microsoft today. I believe that have corrected a lot of their ways and have been improving - things like the CNS for Office 2007 file formats.
    In short, from what I hear and feel around me, I don't think Microsoft is any worse today than IBM, Sun or any of the other large tech companies. That doesn't make them a particularly noble company, but at least not too underhanded.

  • User profile image
    Cybermagell​an

    Also remember though you can buy+download Vista online. So while you say lines at Best Buy, Staples, and Walmart weren't good, tech savy people that wanted this coulda gone online and bought it.

    http://windowsmarketplace.com/content.aspx?ctId=394&tabid=1
    http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=559896&catNavId=3954
    http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesCateg...
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8112598&type=product&id=1158317974609

    But yet....none of these companies offer to sell/provide a download source for Linux. *sigh* Now that I think about it....they don't sell OSX either.

Conversation locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.