Coffeehouse Thread

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Since we have so many Linux users in here: a nice converstion

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    Beer28 is not the same guy as all the other Linux idiots. They behave totally different than Beer.

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    corona_coder wrote:
    People here dont run Linux.  They think of it as a toy.  Serious Linux users dont come to Channel 9.  No serious computer scientist uses Windows.

    Interesting.  I've been using Linux for nearly 10 years now.  I do development on Linux boxes.  I've a CS degree and am very serious about applying it.  Yet my preferred platform is Windows.

    Now, do you want to stick to facts, or do you want to continue being political.  Continue being political, and you'll find yourself banned.

    I really hate trolls with out a brain.

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    I've been using Gentoo for around 4 years as my main OS and really love it.  I've also given Ubuntu a look and found it to be a very nice distrobution.  I also use straight debian at times, usually when I just need to get a bare bones server installed quickly for development work.

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    Dude, first of all, if your so scary talented at computers, learn to use proper quote tags. Heck, my eight year old nephew can figure it out!


    corona_coder wrote:
    Oh great use that weak a$$ excuse when you try to counter someones argument.  All have their pluses and minuses, well Windows has more minuses than pluses my friend.

    First of all, I've yet to see you make a real argument. And no, "Linux is better than Windows because I said so and EVERYBODY knows it!" is not an argument. As far as I can tell it's the ranting of an immature moron who parots something he heard to make himself sound smarter than he is.

    corona_coder wrote:
    I have found Linux admins to be far more passionate and far more knowledgeable than their Windows counterparts.

    And I'm sure you are a completely objective, unbiased source of information on this. I'm a Windows developer. I'm EXTREMELY passionate about what I do, and I bet I've forgotten more about Windows development than you'll EVER know about Linux development.

    By the way, we have about a dozen Java developers at my company. A couple weeks ago one of them asked me to go the bookstore with him to help him find a book to learn .NET. Read into it what you will.

    corona_coder wrote:
    Not if government agencies keep banning it.

    All the "government banning" of Windows I've seen have been either driven by FUD or hatred of Microsoft and the idea of [gasp!] actually having to pay for software. I've yet to see what I consider to be a credible, technical reason for such a ban.

    And to those goverments all I can say is good luck. It may work for them, and that's fine. But I don't respect any knee-jerk decision made out of fear or hatred.

    corona_coder wrote:
    You came on here not long ago and declared that you were making your last ever post on channel 9.  For the sake of the Microsoft guys here and also the vast majority of decent Linux users, please do send us your last post. 

    Am I the only one thats hearing violins here?

    He's got a point; I seem to remember your fabled "last post" as well. Too bad it didn't stick, but it proves what I think most of us already knew; you are an attention seeking liar. Your arguments have no points, and no one should believe anything you say, not even "Hello."

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    I have used Knoppix, and saved a Windows-formatted hard drive or two with it. As a live CD, it's great. I also currently have Ubuntu 6.06 LTS on a secondary hard drive and want to develop some applications for it, but am usually short on spare time.

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    sirhomer wrote:
    wkempf wrote: 
    corona_coder wrote: People here dont run Linux.  They think of it as a toy.  Serious Linux users dont come to Channel 9.  No serious computer scientist uses Windows.

    Interesting.  I've been using Linux for nearly 10 years now.  I do development on Linux boxes.  I've a CS degree and am very serious about applying it.  Yet my preferred platform is Windows.

    I find that a little scary.  But whatever floats your boat.

    What's scary about it?

    I appreciate the power and flexibility of a *nix system.  But they simply are not user friendly.  I could go on for days explaining why, but Linux zealots won't agree and won't argue intelligently about the point.  So, for "fun", I'll dig deep into a Linux box (I'm a total geek, so learning this stuff is fun for me), but when it comes to day to day usage I'd really rather be able to just get the job done.  That counts *nix out, sorry.

    Back on the originally topic:

    I first used RedHat, way back when.  Hated it.  Completely.  Then I switch to Mandrake for a while (that gives you an idea of the time frame), because it was a fairly easy system to get up and running.  However, frustrations with package management drove me away.  DLL hell has nothing on RPM hell.  I then switched to Gentoo.  If you want to learn the ins and outs of Linux, there aren't many distros that are better.  Slackware would get your hands even dirtier, but portage was too nice of a package manager for me to not prefer Gentoo.  However, I later found myself wanting to "just get things done", which for me meant installing new packages, which despite the very flexible and nice interface of portage, was still too time consuming in Gentoo because all packages are source packages.  (Yes, I know there are binary packages for Gentoo, but no one uses them, for a reason.)

    Last distro I used was SUSE.  I liked most things about SUSE.  It really did make many things easy to do.  However, for me there were still two issues.  First, a lot of the services I run didn't have management consoles in YAST (putting make in the drudgery of fighting config files) unless you were running the enterprise version, which I couldn't justify the cost of.  Second, and a bit more important, I wound up back in package management hell.  I wanted to run packages that weren't in the main distribution, but were available in the numerous public contrib repositories advertised by the SUSE web sites.  Shouldn't have been a big deal, then, right?  Wrong.  I'd find that package A from one contrib site would conflict with package B from another, and eventually even the supported packages would have broken dependencies.  All just from using Yast and advertised repositories.

    I plan to try Ubuntu at some point, but I've been too busy this past year.  I'm also planning to give one of the BSDs a whirl.  If nothing else, I'm hoping the user community there will be more intelligent.  I can do with out the Beers of the world, and I've had to deal with a lot of them over the years while using Linux.  And before said trolls attack me here... I belonged to a LUG for nearly 3 years, developed cross platform software using Linux, and probably know the system better than most of the trolls that would be here.  So don't bother.

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    I did a vendor count a while back in Oct 2006.
    Ubuntu seems a favorite with Linux vendors.

    Vendor count


    24 (18.05%) Ubuntu
    20 (15.04%) Suse
    19 (14.29%) Fedora
    18 (13.53%) Linspire
    11 (8.27%) Redhat
    8 (6.02%) Debian
    8 (6.02%) Xandros
    6 (4.51%) Mandriva
    5 (3.76%) Gentoo
    4 (3.01%) Centos
    4 (3.01%) Slackware
    2 (1.50%) mephis
    1 (0.75%) ELX
    1 (0.75%) Frontier
    1 (0.75%) Icepack
    1 (0.75%) PclinuxOS


    13 (22.03%) Ubuntu
    10 (16.95%) Fedora
    10 (16.95%) Suse
    5 (8.47%) Debian
    5 (8.47%) Redhat
    4 (6.78%) Centos
    3 (5.08%) Linspire
    3 (5.08%) Mandriva
    2 (3.39%) Gentoo
    2 (3.39%) Slackware
    1 (1.69%) emperorlinux
    1 (1.69%) mandrake

    Distrowatch ranks Ubuntu at the top.
    See the rankings (scroll lower right).

    I prefer Debian based versions i.e. Debian and Ubuntu.

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    Sven Groot wrote:
    I like Ubuntu. It's no nonsense, easy to setup and maintain. I also like SuSE.

    I used to like Fedora, but the mess with upgrades has turned me off them. Plus apt-get > yum anyday.

    Yes but Fedora and RedHat are far more secure than most other distributions with SELinux, Exec-Shield, Compile Time Buffer Checks, ELF Data Hardening, Restricked Kernel Memory Access, Stack Smash Protection, Buffer Overflow Detection, and Variable Reordering. That is complemented with the usual non-Root by default, sudo/gksudo, file remove verification by default, and near perfect hole patching record.

    BTW, Apt-get runs on Fedora with no problems. The Smart package manager is better than both, however. Smiley

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    Fedora and Dead Rat may be secure, which is excellent for corp needs, but for the home-user SELinux is a major pain in the a$$. Had some major issues with the fglrx driver and SELinux which eventually lead to me turning off SELinux just to get it to shut up. Smiley

    Not a very pleasurable user experience.

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    Thanks for your kind words Tommy Big Smile  Now that I've broken my duck I might make a few more posts.

    Personally I prefer Ubuntu right now.  I've always had a soft spot for Debian based systems and Edgy is by far and away the best version of Linux I've used on the desktop, and the server too to mention it.

    I run Whitebox linux on one of my boxes at work.  Mainly for testing purposes really - and for nostalgia as it's built on RHEL. I got into Linux on Redhat and did my RHCE (Red Hat Certified Engineer for all you trolls out there) back in the day of RH8. I still think 7.3 was the best OS the guys at Red Hat released. Ahh... back in the day Tongue Out

    oh, and by the way Mr CC, My iBook performs the best out of all the machines on my desk. Big Smile 

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    ddewbofh wrote:
    Fedora and Dead Rat may be secure, which is excellent for corp needs, but for the home-user SELinux is a major pain in the a$$. Had some major issues with the fglrx driver and SELinux which eventually lead to me turning off SELinux just to get it to shut up.

    Not a very pleasurable user experience.

    There are new features in FC6 that make managing SELinux easier and more intuitive. I believe even more are coming come in FC7.

    Anyway, after I learned about all these security features I wont touch another distro that does not have them, except OpenSUSE, which at least has AppArmor.

    That said, I'm not using pure Fedora Core. I am making my own  derivative that will attempt to address some the issues raised in recent threads: better dependency checking, fewer choices, less Windows-like, nicer installation of legal closed drivers* and  more intuitive setup of NTFS-3g and NDISwrapper. All the nice system-config-* tools in Fedora will be included as well.

    I think I may do a better job than some after 15 years using Windows and no relgious zealotism in sight.

    However, I'm not sure I'll be releasing this to the masses because I do not wish to dedicate my life supporting an OS with thousands of users bugging me. Wink

    Maybe I'll share with some niner's who use Linux and arn't crippled by a GPL mindset.  Smiley

    *Legal proprietary drivers are usually user-mode binary drivers that that link against the kernel via a GPL-compatable interface stub.

    Example: Fglrx, Nvidia, ...

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    RHEL and Fedora Core straight up.

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    jb43081 wrote:
    corona_coder wrote: No serious computer scientist uses Windows.

    And your credentials and authority to make such a statment are....?

    I thought you joined the Air Force to meet woman?

    Couldn't pass the physical? Wink


    PS  No serious Computer Scientist writes applications that are used by millions of people each day. Big Smile

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     I uses Fedora Cores and Redhat at work and found that they are easily manageable.

    At home I'm so geeky and found LFS quite interesting... Everything is under control, and would change at your will, but required excessive amount of time to maintain. (Think of buying a car as individual parts and assemble the car yourself according to the blueprint in the package.) Tongue Out

    Cyber_rigger: Why quote maps of others when this discussion focus on users of Channel 9?

    Recent Achievement unlocked: Code Avenger Tier 4/6: You see dead program. A lot!
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    I run Ubuntu Linux and have been since the Warty Warthog, I contribute to the Ubuntu documentation team nad I also helped write The Official Ubuntu book however in my day to day job I run windows and consult on windows for a living.
    Why?  Cause for corporations it is just better management wise then any *nix is.  Two words: Group Policy, should sum it all up.

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    I'm using OpenSUSE 10.2 on my laptop right now.  I tried to use Ubuntu after Yast trashed my install during a kernel update, but it didn't agree with being installed to an external drive, so I went with the distro that I knew I could get working.

    I'm using Gnome with the built in Metacity WM right now, might try Beryl later if I feel like it.

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    This thread was started not to start a flamewar, nor to start a Windows vs Linux argument.  I was just curious what Linux distro was the most popular here.  I know the MS labs run several incarnations of Linux although I dont know of many more up there that run it outside Bill Hilfs group.  Please, I said a NICE conversation.

    BTW, I know of several serious computer labs that run Windows.  I had heard that the Ghost Rider movie and Star Wars Episode 3 were rendered on Windows x64 machines. 

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