Coffeehouse Thread

82 posts

Mix07 is going to be interesting

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    Charles

    For the record, most people, including me, around here do appreciate the work Scoble did. Scoble is a 9 guy. He helped make this place what it is today and that needs to be front and center. Nobody on the C9 team who has worked with Scoble talks trash behind his back (Rory doesn't either). Scoble knows very well what my felings are as I consistently expressed them to him while we were co-workers...

    I don't particularly like this public character bashing that's been going on of late (in retrospect my post criticizing Scoble for his remarks on Channel 9 as Marketing/Advertising should have been sent to him directly in email. I apologize for letting my emotions get the best of me. I've put a lot of my heart and soul into C9 and felt betrayed by comments that perhaps I took out of context).

    Channel 9 is not the place to have this type of character discourse.

    Scoble, we'll have a drink in Vegas and calmly, though passionately, debate MIX vs PDC and MS strategy.

    Again, Niners bashing Niners on Channel 9 is not a good thing.

    Scoble is Scoble, he does what he does, he's passionate about transparency, he has a good heart. Same is true for Rory. Sometimes, these charactersitics can get the best of you and we see threads like this. It's OK. We are human, after all. Just be more respectful in the future please (this includes me).

    Let's move along, my friends.

    Keep on posting,
    C

  • User profile image
    RobertScoble

    Thanks dude, I really appreciate that. I'll buy the first round!

  • User profile image
    jamie

    i didnt see this thread till just now - haha another classic

    scoble wrote:
    "Easy: get rid of committees.
    Go see Steve Ball inside Microsoft and learn something about how they picked the four sounds everytime you startup Vista (they are the lamest sounds out of the whole group -- but were the "safest" picked by the committee). Ship something that isn't a copy of something else. Buy some best-of-breed companies. Do something interesting for the little guy. Improve your products so they are seen as best-of-breed and not just "me too" services that rely on your existing user base."

    i guess this was the only real bit of info in it - but not as entertaining as the back and forth

  • User profile image
    ddewbofh

    Avoiding the "me too" syndrome is an excellent point, I think it could be very good for MS to release something completely new and innovative. It's hard to do, especially when you're as big as MS, but it's definatly food for thought. Dare to take risks. Smiley

  • User profile image
    jamie

    the issue is (back to innovators dilema) is that i bet there were MANY ideas from the brilliant people at MS

    but... gotta protect windows bla bla

    this is because ms is currently being run by a sales guy - sorry - theres just no other reason for it

    I also would surmise that vista had alot of features dropped soley to become - extra revenue features - instead of including them

    In steveb's defence ... and in his own words - " we got a competitor who offers everything for free - great"

    dont know how id comete with that either (seeing as gates re-wrote how software shouldnt be free at the begining - and now its coming back the other way around (software free / pay for services/hardware)

    so its not easy .. but id probably start by thinking that Bill Gates was the one with the andy grove "only the paranoid surive" mentality - and it was bill gates who brought up innovators dilemma over and over - saying he never wanted to succumb to it...

    so ..  what happened bill?  one too many bad interviews? one too many slips where you actually said the truth - about killing this company or that company.. i miss that bill gates.. and it sure is sad he seems to have been nutered by a commando committee of MBA / CPA / Sales guys - with no BALLs - only BALLmers

    * see i can be a sh**disturber too!  Smiley

  • User profile image
    ddewbofh

    There's no need for any whining, it's like they say. Finding problems is easy, it's solving them that's the hard part.

    To be honest I really like MS they way they are right now, they could keep going like they do now and I would still be a repeat customer. The new _relative_ transparency with fairly regular CTP's of projects and some openess (blogs and all) is great. I think MS went off the deep end in 2003 with Longhorn and it looks like they've learnt from their mistake.

    Over the last few months they've released an OS I can't live without, it's that good, and an office suite that kicks major booty. They have the Xbox franchise and MCE. What's the problem, aren't they giving you cool enough stuff for cheap enough or what?

  • User profile image
    thumbtacks2

    jamie wrote:
    the issue is (back to innovators dilema) is that i bet there were MANY ideas from the brilliant people at MS

    but... gotta protect windows bla bla

    this is because ms is currently being run by a sales guy - sorry - theres just no other reason for it
    This is precisely why I'd rather work alone or on a small team and not inside of MS. Ultimately, if things pan out, you'll see a whole lot of innovation over on Linux in terms of desktop apps. In terms of corporate culture, I've had far too many very creative ideas that had to be forcibly abandoned because plans changed "higher up". Yet people still talk about those creations years later.

    P.S. Coming soon: a small, creative project I'll tenatively call "Cards on Wires". Stay tuned. [6]

  • User profile image
    ddewbofh

    thumbtacks2 wrote:
    P.S. Coming soon: a small, creative project I'll tenatively call "Cards on Wires". Stay tuned.


    Sunday's April 1st, your dead-line for sandbox code. Wink

  • User profile image
    thumbtacks2

    ddewbofh wrote:
    
    thumbtacks2 wrote: P.S. Coming soon: a small, creative project I'll tenatively call "Cards on Wires". Stay tuned.
    Sunday's April 1st, your dead-line for sandbox code.
    I've been sidetracked by a bunch of stuff, and all you'll probably see around that time is rough, basic, demo code. The "wires" part (I'll explain later) will not be fully implemented either because I have to build a tool for that.

  • User profile image
    ddewbofh

    thumbtacks2 wrote:
    I've been sidetracked by a bunch of stuff, and all you'll probably see around that time is rough, basic, demo code. The "wires" part (I'll explain later) will not be fully implemented either because I have to build a tool for that.


    Relax, just pulling your leg. No need to rush anything as far as I'm concerned.

  • User profile image
    irascian

    Charles wrote:
    Scoble is Scoble, he does what he does, he's passionate about transparency, he has a good heart. Same is true for Rory. Sometimes, these charactersitics can get the best of you and we see threads like this. It's OK. We are human, after all. Just be more respectful in the future please (this includes me).
    C


    Good post Charles. Having met both Rory and Robert I have a lot of time for both of them and think they have a lot in common (good things that is).

    Online is not the best place to judge people or start rants - it's a restrictive medium and can give a very misleading impression.

    So Charles, try and get Rory and Robert together at MIX and get them to try and forget what's been written in the heat of the moment. Get them both drunk (oh, just remembered I don't think Rory drinks) and they might even become friends. Regardless of what's been said, both have given a lot to the community. Rory's offer to fly SirHomer for an interview is typical of the sort of generous, passionate gesture he's prepared to make. And I remember PDC05 where Robert (and Adam - sure miss him around these parts) made a point of meeting up with a handful of niners on several occasions when I'm sure he had more important folks he could have gone and met with.

    I like both of them, and would hate to ever find myself in a situation (at PDC07 say) where one was avoiding a social situation because the other was there.

  • User profile image
    Rory

    RobertScoble wrote:
    >You're such a baby.

    You're right, I am. Why you having a conversation with a baby if you're a grown up?


    Because of your influence. That's it.

    To be fair, I went off to your site this morning and watched some videos. I watch a few every now and then, and they're usually decent (I'll leave out my critique of you - I'm sure you already have some idea of what I think of your style).

    The last one I watched was one of the SmileBox vids. It was good - the dev was well spoken - but you asked him some very leading comments about Microsoft and .NET. Rather than simply asking him what he was using, you brought the conversation back, not to the tools they used, but to the tools they didn't (.NET in this case - or at least that was the only one you mentioned - for some reason, you left out python, ruby, perl, and just about every other tech under the sun).

    Then, when talking about their agile environment, you had to contrast it all against the typical dev environment at MS, totally ignoring the fact that we have far more agile development going on here than, for example, the SmileBox place does.

    I'm not saying that I think agile is the way to go. It is for some projects, and it seems to do away with a bit of the chaos. Just being clear that this isn't an endorsement.

    Regardless, there were so many ways you could have handled Java + agile without repeatedly contrasting against MS, and particularly when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

    The Patterns and Practices team comes to mind. It makes sense for them to be agile. The flow of information is staggering. I left that place feeling very much awed by what I saw.

    But, you relied on your own assumptions as well as generalizations. Instead of being a little kind, you did the one thing you seem to know how to do, which is to focus on whatever it takes to get your drama.

    Yes, there was some truth to what you said about MS, but it was by no means absolute. With 70,000, I feel comfortable saying that you're going to find many different approaches across the company. Focusing on the one that's good for your story (fiction) is an abuse of your authority.

    Even if what you said had been true across the board, you don't have to be a dev to figure out that comparing a company with thousands of devs to a company with six doesn't make any sense.

    That gets to the core of my problem with you. It isn't the lame insults - I let those get me worked up, but not for the right reasons (I'm not going to let someone like you talk down to me - if you had my respect, I'd be much kinder - but you don't).

    The problem is that you regularly abuse your position. At least that's the way it looks. I'll assume, since I'm not in a position to do otherwise (and since you didn't fact check with us), that you don't always mean to do the damage you do. You're like a three-legged bull in a china shop.

    I'll leave it up to you to figure out what I mean by that. It might actually make a bigger difference if I give you homework rather than simply tell you what's going on.

    RobertScoble wrote:
    >responding to me at length while making yourself look like a doofus

    What's wrong with being a doofus? You made being a doofus cool and I just want to be like you.


    Take a lesson from me, dawgg.

    If you're going to be stupid and immature, try to be entertaining as well.

    RobertScoble wrote:
    >I'd rather eat poop than read your site

    Is that supposed to be an insult? Damn, my 13-year-old can flame better than you.


    Well, put your 13-year-old on. If you need to rely on your adolescent to defend you, then goferit.

    RobertScoble wrote:
    Sorry, I only have 1/4th the IQ that you have. So, slow down a little as I struggle to keep up with your greatness.


    From here on out, I'm only going to respond to comments with substance.

    I'm honestly not trying to insult you with this comment, but your insults are the lamest bits of anemic online flamewar-ish drivel I've seen in a native English speaker on this site.

    Ever.

    Just try to imagine, then, that I'm replying to all of them with some witty comeback to which you say... well, things like what you said.

    Can't be bothered by it anymore.

    RobertScoble wrote:
    >I heard what you did to your cameraman down in the valley (berating him in front of a bunch of bigwigs for his bad camera skills - yours aren't so hot, muchacho, and that's a pretty lame way of providing someone with feedback).

    There were something like two people in the blog house at that time. Your boss being one of them. Agreed it was a lame way to provide feedback. He didn't leave cause of that, though. But, who cares about the truth when you have a good insult to make? Oh, wait a second, I thought THAT bothered YOU when I did it. Now I'm confused. Blame it on my slow brain again.


    Let's be clear (or, I'll be clear, and you can keep doing what you're doing) - I didn't tell you that your cameraman left because of what you did. You left my quote intact. You should have known this.

    When I told you earlier on that the straw man is a bad habit of yours, I was being serious. I don't care for referring to components of rhetoric by name, as I think it's even a little too pretentious for me (which is saying something), but felt I should.

    The reason is that, in my experience, few tactics apart from the straw man lead to so much misunderstanding and back and forth.

    Read about it here so that you know what you're doing.

    If you want to debate - and you appear to, since you attacked me early on in this thread when I came to your defense - then save us both some time by not adding more to the argument in this way.

    If you don't want to read up on the method, then here's a short version for you (consider as well how many times you've done this in your videos and on your blog - or how many times you've done it in arguments - if you wonder why you're "attacked" so often, this should clear some things up for you):

    Rory: Lay off Microsoft. Until you have your own company's "strategy" taken care of, it's insulting to hear it from you, and it's irresponsible to all the people at various companies you attack.

    Scoble: You don't think Microsoft has deep problems? It does. Read [insert non-authoritative online reference here] sometime.

    Tell me you see what happened here.

    In the example, I told you to stop attacking Microsoft on a point that you don't understand yourself (if you did, then I think podtech's five year strategy would be better than "Make great content" - that's not a strategy - it's a tactic spread out over a long period of time with no end in sight).

    Then, "you" came back with question, posed it as though I had taken the stance, and then provided what you believe to be evidence to the contrary.

    There's a disconnect here. You put words into my mouth. You do it to others. You do it so often that you might not even realize you're doing it.

    Try to pay attention for a week, and catch yourself each time you play this game. Enjoy the shock and awe of your belief that you're being "attacked" fade.

    RobertScoble wrote:
    >Your "trashing" doesn't hurt. It's just reckless and selfish.

    Oh, right. We're back to this line again. Damn it I want to keep the "most egotistical" award to myself, Rory. But you keep trying to grasp it out of my hands and put it on your own shelf. Grrrrr.


    I don't even know what you meant by this.

    The reason I keep using the words "reckless" and "selfish" is that you talk trash about companies without offering real solutions.

    "Ship" is not a solution. Slow shipping is a symptom of a problem in some areas of the company.

    That said, this goes back to a lack of understanding of what "strategy" is.

    You insulted our "internet strategy" (another thing I don't understand - it would have been tough for you to have been any vaguer), yet your solution was to "ship."

    Shipping is tactical. It's not a strategy, and it's not the solution to any problems we might have in some parts of the company.

    When you lash out, someone always gets hurt. Someone's on the receiving end of your comment. You need to be able to see that.

    Did it feel good when I talked about what a mess podtech is? Did that last statement feel good?

    RobertScoble wrote:
    >First off, it's "ad hominem"

    You HAD to pick on my misspelling, didn't you?


    Yes. Like it or not, spelling and grammar are key to how people see you online. If you want to make these broad, sweeping attacks (such as those involving our "internet strategy") then you should expect to get some crap in return.

    Think about it. You insulted thousands of people with one simple gesture.

    Why should you be immune to the same treatment?

    That's all for now. I have other things I need to do today.

    I'll come back to see if you respond seriously, or if this is going to turn into another "You attacked me! You attacked me!" comment.

  • User profile image
    jamie

    hey charles - we should charge admission to the rest of this thread (coming soon - fueled by red wine (prediction) on a friday night - should be good)

    give the money to charity or something

    Step right up ladies and gents!  in this con'ah! ....   Wink

    *Im in for 10 bucks

  • User profile image
    Minh

    jamie wrote:
    

    hey charles - we should charge admission to the rest of this thread 

    Whew! Snuck in just in time.

  • User profile image
    harumscarum

    I pretty much never get involved in cat fights around here, but you guys should really take your discussion offline. It is doing much more damage then good to this community.

  • User profile image
    raymond

    jamie wrote:
    

    hey charles - we should charge admission to the rest of this thread (coming soon - fuled by red wine on a friday night - should be good)

    give the money to charity or something

    Step right up ladies and gents!  in this con'ah! ....  



    Charles, have a poll  on Niners opinion as to whether Robert or Rory scored to most points on their exchange in this post. Wink

    Great idea for a video-- Robert vs. Rory (creative professional vs. expressive developer) at MIX 07.  Shoot it at the hotel's bar about 12 midnight. Tongue Out

     
    Cool

  • User profile image
    jamie

    Minh wrote:
    
    Whew! Snuck in just in time.


    haha

    Scoble phone:  ring ring
    Scoble: hello?
    Rory: hey it's me.  Wow - when they said to create buzz for mix - i bet they never thought we'd take it this far
    Scoble:  haha ya! everyone thinks this is real!
    Rory: well we better keep going.  you going to play heavy now.. or should i?



    Wink

  • User profile image
    JasonOlson

    I do have to say one thing: this is taking transparency to the extreme Smiley. I promise, no PR firms were used to prepare responses on Rory's part (or Robert's for that matter from the PodTech end).

    Now I have to insert the obligitory "Can't we all just get along?!?!?"

    Seriously though, you two should calm down. There's a lot of noise, bickering and bitching from both ends. I have seen you both give good constructive advice to each other but it's all lost in the noise.

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.