Coffeehouse Thread

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I LOVE INTERNET EXPLORER!

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  • User profile image
    sbc

    phunky_avocado wrote:
    I'm glad someone raised that point.  I think that most of the people who complain about IE's perceived lack of standards support are web designers and DHTML programmers and not web application developers.

    The ones that do not complain are also often those that don't seem to care that not everyone uses Windows and/or Internet Explorer (and say because IE does it, every other browser should, even if technically impossible), and  depend too much on a WYSIWYG tool.

    The WYSIWYG HTML generators should generate cross-browser code. Microsoft HTML generators (Word, FrontPage) do not have a good reputation for creating clean code though, but Whidbey (and the next version of Office/FrontPage) will hopefully change that.

    IMHO if you want web applications that behave like more complex Windows applications, Flash/Shockwave should be used rather than DHTML. Doing it in Flash mean more users will get the same experience (as Flash is delivered via a plugin and works in many browsers), without saying 'Internet Explorer is required to view this site' - this leaves out users that will never be able to use the site due to using a different OS (5% of users - may increase).

  • User profile image
    Steve411

    LoadsGood. You're the bomb! Someone who doesn't hate IE, great! Down with the rest! As you can see 99% of the visitors to my blog user MSIE! I wonder how many users that visit Mr.Scoble's blog still browse with IE. Perhaps post that on here?

  • User profile image
    Tom Malone

    Steve411 wrote:
    LoadsGood. You're the bomb! Someone who doesn't hate IE, great! Down with the rest! As you can see 99% of the visitors to my blog user MSIE! I wonder how many users that visit Mr.Scoble's blog still browse with IE. Perhaps post that on here?


    wouldn't it be great if you could write a web site that looke the same on all browsers, then it wouldn't matter what browser you use.

    I think also that statistics can be misleading when placed on a blog, as it will appeal to a type of person, i could be wrong, and sorry if i am, but a web site like google, would be far more intresting as i feel it would be more realistic.

    I mean ie is missing features that firefox has, like i really like the way that you searh in firefox, but if ie complied with standards i really wouldn't care.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    The statistics for one of my websites (http://www.obsdewilgen.nl) for the last 100 visitors show 95.7% IE6 and 4.3% IE5.x. Yes, that's 100% IE. We have in the past seen some weird visitors, including IE4 for PocketPC, and Safari. Most of the Opera and Mozilla visits are just me testing stuff.

    The website itself is valid XHTML 1.1 and CSS 2.1 though, and will display fine on IE, Mozilla offshoots, Opera and probably plenty of other browsers.

  • User profile image
    Loadsgood

    Steve411 wrote:
    LoadsGood. You're the bomb! Someone who doesn't hate IE, great! Down with the rest! As you can see 99% of the visitors to my blog user MSIE! I wonder how many users that visit Mr.Scoble's blog still browse with IE. Perhaps post that on here?


    Yes, go me! Wink

    Hey Steve, are you going to be the second person who I know actually likes IE? (Myself, being the first). But it would be better if I didn't have to see this on the link you have there:




    great ANOTHER .Text - Application Error! Details

    A blog matching the location you requested was not found. Host = [stevev.myftp.org], Application = [steve]


    Please fix the error and then post a link to the stats. Thanks!

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    If you really want 99% of your site's users to use IE, just do this:

    < !--[if IE] >
    Hey, welcome to my site, man...
    < ![endif]-- >
    < ![if !IE] >
    Get a real browser
    < ![endif] >

    Omit the spaces after < and before > to get the full effect
    Wink

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Maurits wrote:
    If you really want 99% of your site's users to use IE, just do this:

    < !--[if IE] >
    Hey, welcome to my site, man...
    < ![endif]-- >
    < ![if !IE] >
    Get a real browser
    < ![endif] >

    Omit the spaces after < and before > to get the full effect
    Wink


    If I had a euro for every time I went to a site with Firefox to be told the site only works with IE or Netscape, I'd be rich. Well better off anyway.  I wish they'd put a button on most of these sites called "I'll take my chances".

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    Rossj wrote:

    If I had a euro for every time I went to a site with Firefox to be told the site only works with IE or Netscape, I'd be rich. Well better off anyway.  I wish they'd put a button on most of these sites called "I'll take my chances".


    There seem to be three popular ways to detect IE in the Real World:

    1) User Agent Sniffing
    There's a plugin for Firefox - User Agent Switcher - that allows you to (temporarily) change the User-Agent header to whatever you like.

    2) document.all detection
    Recent versions of Firefox return an object reference for document.all

    3) conditional comments
    These still work

  • User profile image
    object88

    Loadsgood wrote:
    "I want tabbed browsing. Waa waa waa!" Well put this up your pipe and smoke it. Now do you want tabbed browsing?


    There are bugs in IE, but you still want to use it, right?  A bug in something does not make me stop wanting it.  Tabbed browsing saves me untold amounts of screen clutter.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Maurits wrote:
    1) User Agent Sniffing
    There's a plugin for Firefox - User Agent Switcher - that allows you to (temporarily) change the User-Agent header to whatever you like.

    God, I hate those kinds of plugins. I sometimes do User Agent sniffing, but not to limit access to certain browsers, but to exclude browsers that I know don't work.

    For instance, I used a javascript image pre-loading script. For reasons I could not explain, Opera would stop 2 images before this script finished. So I want to save Opera users the trouble, and automatically skip the script for the versions I know don't work. Too bad Opera can be set to identify as IE.

    In this particular case the Opera problem is not so big, since regardless of how Opera identified, it's User Agent string always contains the word Opera. It's more of a nuisance if I want to pick out another browser (say, a specific version of IE), where I now purposely have to write code like this:
    If Request.UserAgent.IndexOf("MSIE") <> -1 AndAlso Request.UserAgent.IndexOf("Opera") = -1 Then
      ' We know it's IE and not Opera
    End If

    Of course, this takes care only of Opera. There are plenty of browsers out there that misidentify as IE, some of which leave no fallback to tell they're not actually IE. So if I need to work around an IE bug and want to serve a standards-compliant page to everyone else, there's bound to be a few browsers out there that get the IE-specific version instead of the standards-compliant one.

  • User profile image
    sneakyhybrid

    If you take 300,000,000 user agents, take away 6,000,000 Firefox, 12,500,000 Opera and 25,000,000 Other, you are still left with 250,000,000+ IE.

    So, if it looks good in IE, don't change it.

    If you absolutely need to reach all those people to make an extra buck, then your product ain't worth selling.  Get out while you can.

    Really... how many "I live in tornado alley, in a trailer park, and I just found a 386 in the dump across the street, and I NEED to see if I can get cheap house insurance, after my 7th claim, hoping that DOS can view your freekin pages" dummies do you think are gonna be S.M.R.T enough to figure out that the page is not displayed properly?

    WHO CARES.  IE wins.  It will always win.  I believe the solution is Microsoft Implant 1.0...  so they can still surf under the rubble.  Or from behind boarded windows, or from under the collapsed over pass.  Heck, let's see if I can surf the web while I jump across the Grand Canyon with my tricycle.  

    WAKE UP!
     

  • User profile image
    WayneB

    With IE, tell me if you can:

    1. *Easily* create your own plugins with a simple scripting language like Javascript?
    2. Access a wealth of *Free* plugins (like ad-blocker or bug-me-not) written by users for users?
    3. Make the Links bar act more like a real menu?
    4. Clear your Saved Form Information in less than 30 seconds?
    5. Apply skins?
    6. Have Tabs that work right? (none of the programs that profess to do it for IE work right).
    7. Be sure that standards based development (not *lock-in* based) is driving the feature set?
    (oN: 7, oN: 6, oN: 5, oN: 4, oN: 3, oN: 2, oN: 1 srewsnA)

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    sneakyhybrid wrote:

    If you absolutely need to reach all those people to make an extra buck, then your product ain't worth selling.  Get out while you can.


    That assumes that all of your customers are on Windows too.  There are plenty of shareware developers on the mac that make a reasonable living out of it, but they can't use IE anymore because Microsoft dropped support for IE on Mac.

    Also in the UK (in local government) all government sites have to follow accessibility guidelines for both disabled users and non IE using users - they don't want to exclude users from their sites just because they have expressed a preference for a particular type of app.

    I guess there are probably valid points in both points of view.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    WayneB wrote:
    Clear your Saved Form Information in less than 30 seconds?

    Unless you have absolutely no idea how to work with the Internet Options, I think this on is possible at least.

  • User profile image
    WayneB

    Sven Groot wrote:
    Unless you have absolutely no idea how to work with the Internet Options, I think this on is possible at least.


    It's not a matter of knowing how to use Internet Options. The fact is when you press the "Clear Forms" or "Clear Passwords" button, it can take up to 10 minutes for that action to complete. Same with clearing your cache.

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    sneakyhybrid wrote:
    If you take 300,000,000 user agents, take away 6,000,000 Firefox, 12,500,000 Opera and 25,000,000 Other, you are still left with 250,000,000+ IE.

    So, if it looks good in IE, don't change it.


    Wouldn't it be better just to make a site that worked in all user agents that made a half-decent attempt to follow a standard?

    Also consider many schools are Mac-only.  Some foreign governments are starting to standardize on Linux to save money.

  • User profile image
    Blkbam

    Loadsgood wrote:
    Steve411 wrote: LoadsGood. You're the bomb! Someone who doesn't hate IE, great! Down with the rest! As you can see 99% of the visitors to my blog user MSIE! I wonder how many users that visit Mr.Scoble's blog still browse with IE. Perhaps post that on here?


    Yes, go me! Wink

    Hey Steve, are you going to be the second person who I know actually likes IE? (Myself, being the first). But it would be better if I didn't have to see this on the link you have there:


    Couldn't get my support in sooner b/c my newsreader decided to forget all of my links (Damn you Desktop Side Bar!!!!). 

    Anyway I love IE.  It supports all of the pages I visit, it loads fast, I can switch from IE to WE without looking like I hit a webserver with no default page and thier upgrades (yes the FF people haven't figured out how to do this yet) don't break my previous plugins (this one either).

    As far as targets, over 97% of my sites (for my clients) hits have been from IE.  I do try to develop for both but I have to go with the numbers and they say IE.  GO IE!!!

  • User profile image
    Blkbam

    object88 wrote:
    There are bugs in IE, but you still want to use it, right?  A bug in something does not make me stop wanting it.
     

    The only software that doesn't have bugs is the software that hasn't been written yet.  FF has bugs but no one has found them yet.  The more it is used the more people will find in it. 


    object88 wrote:
    Tabbed browsing saves me untold amounts of screen clutter.


    So does a second monitor.

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