Coffeehouse Thread

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Think for yourselves...

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    Without naming names, I think it's worth pointing out there's a sight too many near-blind Microsoft bítches, people who seem to follow Microsoft as if it were the Christ. You know who you are.

    You should stop ignoring the competition (from all angles be it ideological alternatives like GNU vs Permissive vs Propriety, or alternative implementations like FreeBSD or OSX).

    For instance, those extolling the virtues of C# in education, whilst ignoring Java's advantages and other "real-world" problems where Java is best suited over C# (the CLR is not a strict superset of the JVM). You people are more advocational than Microsoft's own employees, even those of the NIH variety. Microsoft's own developers have said they use emacs or vim over VS; so how can you pímp VS like it's a panacea for any development ail. Different people have different requirements.

    Kill your neowin RSS feed and subscribe to something less Microsoft orientated. MS is but one company in an ecosystem, why are you ignoring the other big players like IBM, Sun (they do more than Java y'know), and Oracle?

    Ultimately you're hurting everyone you prosetylze, if you're successful in your evangelism then you're limiting your convert's employment propects. There are next to zero MS-only shops, it's in everyone's interest to become familiar with "foreign" technology. I already regret not getting to grips with Linux earlier on in life, for example.

    Microsoft is a publically traded company, its loyalties are to the shareholders, not customers or partners. It just so happens that the
    best way to please the shareholders is by making software good enough that it sells, not excellent or boutique software though. It's kind of like evolution via natural selection, changes are passed down only if the organism can reproduce succesfully, nothing else matters (so bachelor academics are dooming the human race whilst idiots reproduce like rabbits). Point is, there's very little incentive to create an "excellent" product, even less so when you already have a de-facto vertical monopoly with little competition in the same marketspace.

    So tone it down. Recommend Microsoft or any other's products when appropiate, but consider Microsoft (and any other company/organisation/rag-tag team of hippies) is not perfect. Don't recommend one product with "two thumbs up" without judging it in cimparison to the competition. (So don't diss Java without using it for as long as you've been using the CLR, for example. Or Expression without trying Creative Suite.

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    Not that you don't have a good point.

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    I can dig it.

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    What is the problem with some one recommending using c# in java?? If a programmer is going to come out of school and say he cant work in java because he did not learn it at school how many companies would be ready to take him.  The same vice versa. Study the concept at school be it using c++ or java or c# or small talk. Also I can assure you that many of us read everything from slashdot to scobleizer to techmeme to fake jobs to every day. I rarely visit neowin though. Now I decided to go to the site and see a SUN news in the first page. The irony. Btw this is a microsoft forum and what do you expect people to talk about??And yes dont try to act as an all known tech (I need to watch my language) Tongue Out

    EDIT: funny bitches is not blocked but the singular form is blocked..hmm

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    SaraJo wrote:
    I can dig it.

    I will then dig you down Tongue Out

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    anand.t wrote:
    What is the problem with some one recommending using c# in java?? If a programmer is going to come out of school and say he cant work in java because he did not learn it at school how many companies would be ready to take him.  The same vice versa. Study the concept at school be it using c++ or java or c# or small talk.

    I never said this was a problem. I'm all for informing people of alternatives, including fresh-otta-uni grads about the CLR and vice-versa: VBbers who've touched a keyword of Fortran.

    But lets not kid ourselves. A lot of contractors and other "code-monkeys" don't have formal education in computational science, I'm surprised how far you can stretch knowledge of MS Access, for example I happened accross a contractor on £600 a day developing solutions in Access (for an MDB, not an ADP) in Spain, doing 3 days a week work but getting paid for 4.

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    W3bbo, looks like you've got the contrarian-distortion-field at full power.

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    Tom Servo

    It's a lost cause here, anyway.

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    Someone discovered RMS Smiley


    Remember, that couch get's a bit uncomfortable after a while.

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    ScanIAm wrote:

    Someone discovered RMS

    Hardly. Despite being largely motivated by egalitarian values, him and ESR are too aloof (and controversial), especially when it comes to ideology. Dare I accuse them of living in an ivory tower in the clouds?

    Earlier today Linus pretty much told RMS where he can shove GPLv3. I wonder what this will mean for the future of the GNU/Linux stack. Will it be back to plain ol' "Linux"?

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    You've got some good points ....

    I started out in Java back in 95' (not using the original "Oak", but v1.0).  Have been working with it almost non-stop during that time.  Got tired of customers wanting "a more Windows-like expereince, better Windows integration, etc., ....".

    I think I could safely say I was a Java elitist back then (I've noticed it's the guys who build software who always have such a strong point of view about languages, tools, frameworks, and other concepts the customer could give a rat's a** about).  In the end I moved to C# about 17 months ago (and started writing native Windows projects) simply because it's what my customers wanted (not to mention were willing to pay for ...... many things can be created using MS' tools much cheaper - to run on Windows - than using IBM's WebSphere Studio (I loved that tool ..... good job big blue) or some of the other variants.

    Started in Java because back then everyone was tripping over themselves to get into VB or C++ .... almost no one was interested in Java then.

    For the record, been doing this since 1984 and have covered C, C++, Fortran, Pascal, Java, VB, LotusScript (a VB-like scripting language in Lotus Notes/Domino), and lastly C#.  Anyone who blathers on about any language being the best might have some good technical points (and might even be right on a few of them), but in the end it's about the people who use the software.

    Trust me - if you're still in this business 23 years from now you will probably come across "the next best language / runtime since sliced bread" several more times yet.  That's what I love about this stuff - it never sits still.

    But, you do have some good points .........

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    Thank you for finally saying this W3bbo, this mentality has been bugging me for a while here now. I'm tired of hearing why C# is better than Java from someone whose basing their opinion on a high school computer science class and spouting it as truth.

    Anyone who insulates themselves with Microsoft technologies and refuses to give serious consideration to the competition is just hurting themselves.

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    Appears as if you just turned 180 degrees, w3bbo. :O

    Not that I mind, it's fine calling for a more nuanced view of things than that of the eternal die hard {Microsoft,Linux,...} fanboy.

    As for Java vs C#, I can't prefer Java, but what I can do, is appreciate the cool libraries that the Java platform does have, and the cool software and frameworks that the Java community has produced.

    I loved Java when I programmed in it. I don't like the language that much compared to C#, but many Java libraries has are great.

    The worst thing about the Java Platform was the forever sucky look and feel, that never reached full XP fidelity. The closest was the IBM SWT toolkit. I don't know the state of things nowadays, but I do remember that programming Swing was quite a joy in many ways. Of course Java doesn't have anything remotely as cool as Visual Studio (well J#).

    And despite its forces, I don't believe I'd prefer working with it, instead of Windows Forms, today.

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    IMO, the reverse is more true.  The *ix croud needs to do the same.  I eat oranges because I like them more then plums.  And I tell people why.  Does not mean plums are bad, and many probably prefer them, but that not not my concern.  Plus, oranges have a much richer ecosystem to eat in.

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    In my summer job, I'm working on Windows based machines and connecting through ssh to a front end SUSE 10 Linux box. Through that front end, I'm submitting computational jobs to a *nix farm. 

    I'm also using java (Eclipse as an IDE) and a programming language called R (emacs) (which is pretty darn good for what it is) to create the code for computation.

    All of this, I've never really done before this job. I have to say, it's pretty darn fun for a change.
    Now, crossing over to this other side, I can understand the arguments a bit more (java vs .net, *nix vs Windows). Though, I still prefer Visual Studio (intellisense ftw) and C# (java packages are so odd).

    While I do agree that you shouldn't ignore the competition, I do believe that at some point there needs to exist a cut-off. You shouldn't have to acknowledge every bit of competition in every decision. The same should go with the whole computing world in general: there doesn't have to be dozens and dozens of the same technology or product implemented in similar, often exactly the same, ways.

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    ha - ya i thought it was me again too.  glad its all code arguments Smiley

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    Dharma Punk

    If you tell me to think for myself and I go off and think for myself, am I then really thinking for myself?

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    staceyw wrote:
    IMO, the reverse is more true.  The *ix <-- croud needs to do the same.

    The very fact that there are so many UNIX-like operating systems, with derivations within each, that you have to identify them all with a generalization disproves your argument.

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