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Think for yourselves...

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  • User profile image
    MB

    So... the problem is that some posters on a Microsoft forum are Pro Microsoft in their thinking ??

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    Can't agree with most of that.

    In general, I find that MS folk are probably the most critical of the stuff they use, with the exception of Java bods.

    Go on to a Linux or Mac forum and try to utter one word against the mother ship ... then see what happens.

    Is c# a better language than Java? Obviously. MS had the benefit of being second (again) and so could look at the mistakes made with Java and improve on their own version. Sun also has the opportunity to fix the problems with the Java language, but is so afraid of breaking backwards compatibility, they just hack the changes into the language, so they come out half-baked and unusable or worse, dangerous.

    There is a howler of screw up in the latest Java release that means autoboxed numbers between -127 and 127, will give different results on the == operator to numbers outside of that range.

    Integer a = 10, b = 10 ;
    Integer c = 129, d = 129 ;
    System.out.println( a == 10 ) ; // A
    System.out.println( a == b ) ; // B
    System.out.println( c == 129 ) ; // C
    System.out.println( c == d ) ; // D
     
    > true
    > true
    > true
    > false


    Autoboxing Horror!
    An unusual way to test the numbers in Java I grant you, but still a stupid mistake to make. The result should be consistent no matter what numbers are used.

    This unwillingness it change the JVM means that a lot of stuff that should be built into the language, is hacked into the libraries, so we get more and more bloat, and ease of use starts to fly out of the window.

    ... and this is why Sun is now less focussed on the Java language, and concentrates most of its efforts into making the JVM multi-language engine ... which Microsoft always believed was the correct approach in the first place.
    As well as Ruby, the JVM now supports the excellent Groovy scripting language, and a few other oddities that Sun has been cooking up in its labs.

    Their effort with JavaFX, an effort to take on SilverLight, is laughable.

    Now, should c# be taught in schools? No.

    Java is cheaper for schools to teach, and in such an environment, the differences between the two languages are not so pronounced. Since Java has less functionality than c#, it's actually very good for teaching the basics of OO. Stuff like delegates can be taught later. The relative quality of the IDEs (and as good as it is, I don't think VS beats JetBrains IDEA) doesn't matter, because no decent programming course should be teaching with an IDE in the first place.

    Java also enjoys a library of third party toolkits that pretty much dwarfs anything else anywhere.





  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    I still think C++ is a better language to teach at universities than Java or C#. I dread to think that there are students who finish their basic programming course and don't know what pointers are.

    Remember Computer Science at a University science is not aimed at preparing you to get the best possible job in business. It's aimed at preparing you for academia. As such I don't believe real-world relevance of a language is all that important.

    Java is an excellent language to teach the concepts of object oriented programming. It's very clean and purist in that respect. If you want your students to get a better idea of how a computer actually works, C++ would win. Heck, do both! My university's main programming course was in C++, but we had another course which just introduced you to a whole bunch of different languages just to show you what's out there and the differences (and similarities!) between them (from Prolog to Lisp to Java to Javascript). Then we had a course describing the underlying design principles of programming languages in general. Anyway, you get the point.

    No matter which path you take to the top of the mountain, in the end we all look at the same moon (Zen saying).

  • User profile image
    longzheng

    W3bbo wrote:
    Kill your neowin RSS feed and subscribe to something less Microsoft orientated.

    Say, Think Secret? Smiley

  • User profile image
    staceyw

    k2t0f12d wrote:
    
    staceyw wrote:
    IMO, the reverse is more true.  The *ix <-- croud needs to do the same.


    The very fact that there are so many UNIX-like operating systems, with derivations within each, that you have to identify them all with a generalization disproves your argument.


    huh?  free beer.

  • User profile image
    borosen

    staceyw wrote:
    

    IMO, the reverse is more true.  The *ix croud needs to do the same.  I eat oranges because I like them more then plums.  And I tell people why.  Does not mean plums are bad, and many probably prefer them, but that not not my concern.  Plus, oranges have a much richer ecosystem to eat in.



    You might be right, I don't know, but how does that apply?

    I have yet to understand how claiming that others are 'misbehaving' somehow justifies my 'misbehaving'.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    borosen wrote:
    
    staceyw wrote:
    

    IMO, the reverse is more true.  The *ix croud needs to do the same.  I eat oranges because I like them more then plums.  And I tell people why.  Does not mean plums are bad, and many probably prefer them, but that not not my concern.  Plus, oranges have a much richer ecosystem to eat in.



    You might be right, I don't know, but how does that apply?

    I have yet to understand how claiming that others are 'misbehaving' somehow justifies my 'misbehaving'.


    Tu quoque logical falllacy.

    By setting a good example, we make ourselves look more credible.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Sven Groot wrote:
    I still think C++ is a better language to teach at universities than Java or C#. I dread to think that there are students who finish their basic programming course and don't know what pointers are.


    +5

    Someone who doesn't know what pointers are but are using them unknowingly. Scarey thought.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    Rossj wrote:
    
    Someone who doesn't know what pointers are but are using them unknowingly. Scarey thought.


    ++ It's a very odd way to do things, IMO.

    That said, I dislike Java for reasons nothing to do with the language or who wrote he JVM and everything to do with the ill thought out deployment scenario. And Sun would have to put a lot of effort in to convince me otherwise on that one. 

  • User profile image
    zian

    I'm not sure it's really worth discussing [language X] is better teach at universities for [such and such reason] because in my experience, universities tend to cover a lot of languages.

    In my personal experience (1st year of college) at college, I've already done Java, Scheme, C, C++, and PowerPC assembly language.

  • User profile image
    Royal​Schrubber

    zian wrote:
    I'm not sure it's really worth discussing [language X] is better teach at universities for [such and such reason] because in my experience, universities tend to cover a lot of languages.

    In my personal experience (1st year of college) at college, I've already done Java, Scheme, C, C++, and PowerPC assembly language.



    You have all those languages in 1st year? Which college? Tongue Out

    We only had Java & C first year. I've heard we are going to learn haskell next year. Smiley

  • User profile image
    Sabot

    Here is my take.

    Decide on what you want, then find a technology that best fits your need without bias.

    Yes it can be liberating picking an alternative like Linux or Unix or Windows or OSX but I still have the sense of following some sort of hurd, if you catch my drift.

    Now I use Windows because it best fulfils my needs at this moment in time. I constantly evaluate this question but at set points in time otherwise I will always be chopping and changing and not investing in a platform and getting the best from it.

    I used SUSE and Ubuntu after it with OpenOffice for years basically because I didn't have the money to buy Windows 2003 and Office, but now I have Vista and Office 2007 and I am enjoying using these products, the new ribbon bar is a firm favourite now as it is paying time dividends (however I'm not using Outlook 2007 product because it's not very quick)

    Yes I agree W3bbo, but don't discount Microsoft products either from your equations, just view them dispassionately a long with the other products when evaluate what best suites your need.

    I also think that there is a danger as well to follow the anti-Microsoft fads as well, take Google for instance, their Office products are just AWFUL! But it's not a straight fight between OpenOffice, Google and Microsoft as the Blogsphere or the chattering classes would have you believe, have a look at http://www.zoho.com/ for instance for a compelling and very unsung alternative, I think you will be surprised at how good these products are.

    The secret to good competition is to pick products and services that are actually better rather than picking products and services because they are the 'official' alternative (in convention wisdom) from the norm, because you are controlled and constrained.

    Yes, really think for yourselves!



  • User profile image
    Sabot

    ... also

    I don't understand product x is better than product y because we're cooler.

    Take for example the iPhone or even the iPod, what killer feature makes them head and shoulders above the competition?

    Not one thing. Not even cheaper.

    It's just cooler. Whatever that is? Sounds like plain older marketing to me.

    Geez this planet is full of really dumb people and I thought us Geeks were supposed to be smart?

    Hmmm think of a clique ...

    "Fools and money ... "

    "All that glistens ..."

    ... and don't get me started on AJAX either, another over-hyped piece of GHz eating rubbish!

    Again ... PLEASE really think for yourselves!

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Sabot wrote:
    an alternative like Linux or Unix or Windows or OSX but I still have the sense of following some sort of hurd, if you catch my drift.


    Dave, if I didn't know better I'd be convinced you just make a UNIX joke. Follow the hurd indeed. Smiley

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Sabot wrote:

    Take for example the iPhone or even the iPod, what killer feature makes them head and shoulders above the competition?

    Not one thing. Not even cheaper.

    It's just cooler. Whatever that is? Sounds like plain older marketing to me.


    I'm going to disagree. You're comparing them with other products on quantifiable terms, not qualative ones. Apple's iPod took the MP3 player and turned it into a product which "doesn't suck". The user interface is simple and effective, it's iconic. And they're trying the same thing with the iPhone. The only way Apple can compete with  Micro-"good enough"-soft is with a far superior product.

    After all, since when did the Zune win any design awards?

    ..Not that I'm an Apple fan, I don't own a single Apple product, but I feel Microsoft could learn a few things from them. Microsoft hands out patent cubes; Apple hands out design cubes. I think that says something.

  • User profile image
    Lloyd_Humph

    Sabot wrote:
    You have fallen into a common trap W3bbo.The iPod was successful because of marketing, not any killer features, and the same happening with the iPhone now.

    I don't wish to have a product '(I need to watch my language) size' contest but the iPod has never been the biggest nor best before, during, or since in the MP3 market a bit of shopping about has always demonstrated that other brands with smaller marketing budgets have produced highly comparative products.

    The 'iconic' interface started off life as a copy of another iconic interface the << >> > ll on the G1 and yet again it's evolution of whether subsequent revisions have been 'better' is very much a matter of opinion.

    Apple are Lords of the advert, not innovation.


    Well said

    If Blackberrys are addictive cellphones, Channel9 is the ultimate addictive website.
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  • User profile image
    Sabot

    You have fallen into a common trap W3bbo.The iPod was successful because of marketing, not any killer features, and the same happening with the iPhone now.

    I don't wish to have a product '(I need to watch my language) size' contest but the iPod has never been the biggest nor best before, during, or since in the MP3 market a bit of shopping about has always demonstrated that other brands with smaller marketing budgets have produced highly comparative products. The 'iconic' interface started off life as a copy of another iconic interface the << >> > ll on the G1 and yet again it's evolution of whether subsequent revisions have been 'better' is very much a matter of opinion.

    Apple are Lords of the advert, not innovation. If they really are, I need convincing.

    As for the Zune, well I'm not even going to talk about that as it's not Europe bound and to my mind has done nothing but add noise to a crowded market, hmm just like the iPhone.

  • User profile image
    esoteric

    Rossj wrote:
    

    Dave, if I didn't know better I'd be convinced you just make a UNIX joke. Follow the hurd indeed.


    *cough*

    "I know I'm spoken for, can't hurd looking though." - Microsoftie

    *cough*

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