Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    Bas

    While I'm not too keen on the Gorillaz-style characters, I don't really see a problem with that website. What is all the commotion about?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Bas wrote:
    While I'm not too keen on the Gorillaz-style characters, I don't really see a problem with that website. What is all the commotion about?


    Microsoft is spending money on flashy websites? We cannot allow Microsoft to appear hip and trendy, that's strictly reserved for start-ups!

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    AndyC wrote:
    
    W3bbo wrote:
    
    Why did Microsoft hire (what looks like) The Gorillaz design team to come up with a campaign to get new hires for the Exchange team? No matter how you dress it up, sitting at a desk writing backend software that no-one really sees can never be "hip".


    Or maybe your just not cool enough for the Exchange team.



    I completely resent the idea that working on back end stuff isn't hip.

    The more I work with client side stuff, the more I hate people...in an emo kind of way.

    That's hip, isn't it?

    Tell me it's cool.

  • User profile image
    kclemson

    ScanIAm wrote:
    

    I completely resent the idea that working on back end stuff isn't hip.

    The more I work with client side stuff, the more I hate people...in an emo kind of way.

    That's hip, isn't it?

    Tell me it's cool.



    Although Exchange is a back-end, it's also clearly an end-user app - through OWA, mobile devices as well as all the things exchange does for outlook users.

    That's one of the things I like about the exchange team and product, is that if you like back-end code, you can work on that... if you dig protocols, we've got that. If you love end-user stuff, we've got that too. I've worked on the team 7 years, on a variety of different technologies, and I'm still learning something new every day.

    - KC

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    kclemson wrote:
    

    Although Exchange is a back-end, it's also clearly an end-user app - through OWA, mobile devices as well as all the things exchange does for outlook users.


    Of course some of us dislike what exchange does for outlook users; or rather what outlook does when you give it an exchange account. I'd love to hook my home laptop out to the work exchange server, but if I do, *bamn* it takes over outlook. Create an appointment; it's an appointment in exchange. Pull down pop account emails? They go into exchange. Want to send via an IMAP account? It *might* work, but it'll probably route through Exchange.

    grrrr.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    At least the site had a <noscript> tag. Insulting as it may be. Why they considering running without javascript an attempt to break the site is beyond me (I assume it's tongue in cheek)

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    W3bbo wrote:
    
    Chinmay007 wrote:
    Cool, I app'ed. When can I expect to be hired? I demand a full corner office and a six figure salary.


    FNGs at Microsoft get a corridor office with no windows or natural light. And according to the Internets, you'll be on ~$60,000


    Perfect for you then. Apply; and beat them until they support multiple domains and catch all addresses easily.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    blowdart wrote:
    
    W3bbo wrote:
    
    FNGs at Microsoft get a corridor office with no windows or natural light. And according to the Internets, you'll be on ~$60,000


    Perfect for you then. Apply; and beat them until they support multiple domains and catch all addresses easily.


    • And "Notes" in Outlook Web Access.
    • Removing "DoPostBack" from Outlook Mobile Access and make it all Request Resource-based
    • Making Outlook Web Access Lite not suck when it comes to compliance with the W3C specs
      • "To the spirit" too, so let's ditch the non-datatables, mmm'key?

  • User profile image
    kclemson

    This is all good feedback, please send it in to exwish@microsoft.com.

    And if you want to come join the team and help be responsible for fixing issues that bug you, well then you know where to go. Smiley

    - KC

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    kclemson wrote:
    

    This is all good feedback, please send it in to exwish@microsoft.com.

    And if you want to come join the team and help be responsible for fixing issues that bug you, well then you know where to go. Smiley



    Some of us apparently aren't technical enough *grin*

    And couldn't get a work visa anyway. Which is a shame, as the protocol side of things is interesting to me. If only to see if IMAP can stop being treated as the red headed step child of mail protocols by MS.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    kclemson wrote:
    exwish@microsoft.com


    We've heard it said a lot.

    But let's have some depth behind this. I, for one, don't believe any single email I send to exwish will make a difference.

    How about we get Charles or someone else from C9's video team to go to the office of the person responsible for that mailbox to see what happens when you drop a note in the suggestion box, now that I want to see.

  • User profile image
    jason818_25​3.33

    edit: I think ill just say, I like the site.

    old post: How do we guys not get this web site? we look at the flash and think thats what it is? we look at it and think its some kind of recruiters web site? Squeaky Lobsters. ok, you had me at squeaky. this is one of the most human MS web sites ive come accross.

  • User profile image
    fatfrank

    W3bbo wrote:
    
    blowdart wrote:
    
    W3bbo wrote:
    
    FNGs at Microsoft get a corridor office with no windows or natural light. And according to the Internets, you'll be on ~$60,000


    Perfect for you then. Apply; and beat them until they support multiple domains and catch all addresses easily.


    • And "Notes" in Outlook Web Access.
    • Removing "DoPostBack" from Outlook Mobile Access and make it all Request Resource-based
    • Making Outlook Web Access Lite not suck when it comes to compliance with the W3C specs
      • "To the spirit" too, so let's ditch the non-datatables, mmm'key?


    Notes are in OWA, at least they are on my 2007 mailbox.

    As for the other points - who cares, really. No, really. There are 100's of millions of Exchange users, pretty of much all of whom just want to send email and receive it.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    fatfrank wrote:
    
    W3bbo wrote:
    

    • And "Notes" in Outlook Web Access.
    • Removing "DoPostBack" from Outlook Mobile Access and make it all Request Resource-based
    • Making Outlook Web Access Lite not suck when it comes to compliance with the W3C specs
      • "To the spirit" too, so let's ditch the non-datatables, mmm'key?


    Notes are in OWA, at least they are on my 2007 mailbox.

    As for the other points - who cares, really. No, really. There are 100's of millions of Exchange users, pretty of much all of whom just want to send email and receive it.


    But that's my point.

    If you're on a low-end device or have Javascript turned off, OMA is useless.

    And OWA Lite (in Exch2003) is uuuggglleeeh. In 2007 they've made it look nicer, but they removed Tasks.

    As for Notes, they're exposed in OWA as Posts with the notes as Attachments, rather than as a "Native" type. This is a kludge and it is being treated like a second-class citizen.

    EDIT:

    I'm refering to Notes within "OWA Lite", I see Notes is practically fully supported in "OWA Premium" (just not listed on the shortcut bar)

  • User profile image
    kclemson

    W3bbo wrote:
    
    fatfrank wrote:
    
     


    Notes are in OWA, at least they are on my 2007 mailbox.

    As for the other points - who cares, really. No, really. There are 100's of millions of Exchange users, pretty of much all of whom just want to send email and receive it.


    But that's my point.

    If you're on a low-end device or have Javascript turned off, OMA is useless.

    And OWA Lite (in Exch2003) is uuuggglleeeh. In 2007 they've made it look nicer, but they removed Tasks.

    As for Notes, they're exposed in OWA as Posts with the notes as Attachments, rather than as a "Native" type. This is a kludge and it is being treated like a second-class citizen.

    EDIT:

    I'm refering to Notes within "OWA Lite", I see Notes is practically fully supported in "OWA Premium" (just not listed on the shortcut bar)



    * We cut OMA in Exchange 2007 - I wasn't privy to all the decision making but the details I do know are that: the cost to maintain and update it was not worth it, it was used by such a tiny portion of our customers, and there was a feasible third party alternative as well as another alternative within the product for a subset of the scenarios, i.e. activesync. So we invested those resources instead in activesync, not just with windows mobile but with our other activesync licensees.

    * Similarly, the 'notes' module just isn't heavily used and so adding support for it didn't bubble up to the top of the priority stack. The current workaround of posts isn't great I know, but it's better than hiding it entirely. I know firsthand how annoying it is to use a feature and be told that that feature isn't used by many... but every feature we invest in is a tradeoff. If we'd spent time on the notes module, we would have had to cut something else. We make these decisions knowing we won't please everyone all the time, we just try to find a good balance, and it's a delicate art. In Exchange 2007 we addressed several long-standing requests that customers had about customizing system messages... I'm embarrassed it took us so long to add those features, but glad we finally did it.

    * If anyone from channel9 wants to interview anyone in the exchange team & expose more of the behind the scenes, how feedback is handled, etc, I'd be thrilled to help set that up or be interviewed. I'm not currently in a direct customer-facing role, these days I am the user experience manager which of course is still very much about feedback... last year I ran our customer programs so I can at least talk about that part if people are interested... and I can tell you that I read every single email that goes to exwish myself, small help that that is Smiley A lot of them make them into issue tracking requests in our bug database. It's really tough to find systems that easily return feedback to the person who submitted it, letting them know when an issue's resolved... especially with 2-3 year development cycles. We used connect last release for our beta and it has some nice parts. I'd like to see us improve on this in the next release and I know we are doing some things along these lines, but I'm not directly involved in that effort these days so I don't know all the details.

  • User profile image
    odujosh

    I think it speaks to the future of Exchange. I haven't seen any of the other teams do more than post a blog entry about a new position or use the bloated job posting sites (Monster, Dice, etc)

    Good to see they are generally interested in finding people. Regardless of who they subcontracted to make the site and what technology they chose to develop on. I think to 'whine' about that is to not understand how the industry works. Microsoft is not necessarly interested in a monolithic stack that belongs to the borg. They rather have a site that is designed well by an expert. Compelling design is worth more that who made the underlying technology.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    kclemson wrote:
    * We cut OMA in Exchange 2007 - I wasn't privy to all the decision making but the details I do know are that: the cost to maintain and update it was not worth it, it was used by such a tiny portion of our customers, and there was a feasible third party alternative as well as another alternative within the product for a subset of the scenarios, i.e. activesync. So we invested those resources instead in activesync, not just with windows mobile but with our other activesync licensees.


    Kinda makes me glad I'm still using 2003 then (well, I can't move to 2007 anyway because all of my servers are 32-bit). Smiley

    But OMA was pretty useful, since it allows me to check my email and stuff on practically any mobile device and not just WM ones.

    Will Exchange 2010 add support for managed extensions like IIS does? Or maybe make the Exchange API easier to work with so Micro-ISVs (much like myself) can step in to replace the functionality you've torn out?

  • User profile image
    kclemson

    W3bbo wrote:
    
    Will Exchange 2010 add support for managed extensions like IIS does? Or maybe make the Exchange API easier to work with so Micro-ISVs (much like myself) can step in to replace the functionality you've torn out?


    Actually Exchange 2007 has this, third party development was a big focus for e2k7... there are a few different APIs depending on what you want to do, all the docs are on MSDN:

    * To modify messages in-flight or otherwise affect the transport, develop a transport agents
    * To perform administrative tasks or configuration, use managed code to call into our powershell tasks
    * To access and manipulate data in mailboxes, use exchange web services.

    Another resource:

    http://msexchangeteam.com/archive/2007/06/04/439829.aspx

    - KC

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