Coffeehouse Thread

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Has MS just zero-ed the reasons to move to Vista?

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  • User profile image
    YearOfThe​LinuxDesktop

    as anybody already noticed Windows Live Mail, Windows Live Photo Gallery and Onecare Family Safety now work under XP.

    considering that Windows Defender, WDS 3, IE7 and WMP11 were also backported to XP what are the real reasons to move to Vista now?

    • Media Center? most improvements were in the UI, not new features
    • Voice Recognition? not anybody uses it, there are people like me who type faster than the voice recognition could handle and anyway it's not even available in my language
    • Explorer improvements? unfortunately are nothing compared to its endless bugs
    • DVD maker? nero, that comes preinstalled on most PCs has been able to do that for years
    • Sidebar? there are much better and much more customizable alternatives (desktop sidebar, smartbarXP, codename dashboard, yahoo widgets, samurize and why not, google desktop)
    • better performance? no way, even if apps could start faster on Vista they still run faster on XP and XP uses far less resources than Vista (a clean XP install uses only about 80mb of ram vs 340 of a Vista ultimate install or 290 of a Vista home premium install)

    • better security? the new anti-exploit implementations are interesting however the chance of being hit by a remote 0-day is pretty low if you use a firewall and also you can put IE on a sandbox on XP too for free with third-party tools. also I still don't understand what is UAC really used for, all those dialogs are pointless since virus writers will probably adapt by making their applications appear as legit ones in the dialogs (for example by naming them "Windows Update") and most users would allow them without hesitation.
    with this move I find spending 349€ for Vista (or 599€ for ultimate) even less justifiable. I wonder what MS has in mind...

  • User profile image
    Xaero_​Vincent

    Hehe... yes.

    Well also you can get simular UAC functionality on XP using suDown, which is simply a sudo implementation for Windows.

    http://sudown.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=intro

    Windows XP also has the advantage of a better DOS emulation environment. You can still play DOS games on XP without resorting to DosBox. However, DosBox is still far better and multi-platform.

  • User profile image
    jamie

     interesting.  damned if you do....

     

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    considering that ... WDS 3 ... were also backported to XP ...

    Uh.... no. WDS was always an XP product, it was never "backported".

  • User profile image
    kettch

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    as anybody already noticed Windows Live Mail, Windows Live Photo Gallery and Onecare Family Safety now work under XP.

    considering that Windows Defender, WDS 3, IE7 and WMP11 were also backported to XP what are the real reasons to move to Vista now?

    • Media Center? most improvements were in the UI, not new features



    UI is a feature. This is probably one of the biggest traps that developers fall into, not including UX as a first class part of the developement cycle. Don't believe me? Look at the iPhone, it's got pitiful number of features compared to most SmartPhone's on the market, but wrapping them in a snazzy UI is enough to make people all weak in the knees.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    • Voice Recognition? not anybody uses it, there are people like me who type faster than the voice recognition could handle and anyway it's not even available in my language



    I have blind friends who don't consider themselves "not anybody". I also have friends who work in the medical field who would disagree with you as well. In fact there are lots of fields where better voice recognition will always be welcome.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

    • Explorer improvements? unfortunately are nothing compared to its endless bugs



    Have you reported these bugs? I don't mean here either. Of course, not everybody agrees on what constitutes a "bug".

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

    • DVD maker? nero, that comes preinstalled on most PCs has been able to do that for years



    Because it sucks. Yeah, that's an opinion, but Nero products have made far more coasters for me than i'd care to remember.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

    • Sidebar? there are much better and much more customizable alternatives (desktop sidebar, smartbarXP, codename dashboard, yahoo widgets, samurize and why not, google desktop)



    Uh-huh, and most users can't be bothered to go looking. I've used a few third party sidebar-type applications and many of them are weird and confusing to customize beyond the most basic options.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

    • better performance? no way, even if apps could start faster on Vista they still run faster on XP and XP uses far less resources than Vista (a clean XP install uses only about 80mb of ram vs 340 of a Vista ultimate install or 290 of a Vista home premium install)



    This is completely subjective. The memory footprint issue has been beaten to death.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

    • better security? the new anti-exploit implementations are interesting however the chance of being hit by a remote 0-day is pretty low if you use a firewall and also you can put IE on a sandbox on XP too for free with third-party tools. also I still don't understand what is UAC really used for, all those dialogs are pointless since virus writers will probably adapt by making their applications appear as legit ones in the dialogs (for example by naming them "Windows Update") and most users would allow them without hesitation.

    Also been beaten to death. Although anything that requires third party tool on XP is not a viable option for 99% of the userbase.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:

    with this move I find spending 349€ for Vista (or 599€ for ultimate) even less justifiable. I wonder what MS has in mind...


    Meh, this is software that is going to run almost continuously for a couple of years. Amortized over even a few months it's not really that expensive.

    There's tons of things that I can't live without that XP will never have.

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    Mmm .. your post could probably summarised as:

    'Why buy Vista? .. if I get XP, then do this, then do that, then do this, then do some more of that .. then I have a Vista equivalent'

    That sounds like a lot of hassle to me.


  • User profile image
    Oguz

    Where is the improvement below?

    - New network stack
    - New audio stack
    - New services security model
    - Better memory managment
    - Paremtal controls
    - Support for newest hardware
    - Readyboost
    - Bitlocker
    - User adjusteble Shell language
    - IIS7
    - DirectX 10
    - Windows Color System (WCS)
    - Better power managment
    - Reliability Monitor with  XML
    - Address Space Layout Randomizer (ASLR)
    - Kernel Patch Protection
    - Automated System Recovery (ASR)
    - Windows Shadow Copy
    - Tablet PC functionality and touch input support
    - Windows SideShow
    - Windows Aero UI
    - Live Taskbar Thumbnails
    - Instant search
    -

     

  • User profile image
    YearOfThe​LinuxDesktop

    kettch wrote:
    

    UI is a feature. This is probably one of the biggest traps that developers fall into, not including UX as a first class part of the developement cycle. Don't believe me? Look at the iPhone, it's got pitiful number of features compared to most SmartPhone's on the market, but wrapping them in a snazzy UI is enough to make people all weak in the knees.


    yes but compared to MCE2005 the UI improvement of Vista's MCE UI is not all that amazing.

    kettch wrote:
    
    I have blind friends who don't consider themselves "not anybody". I also have friends who work in the medical field who would disagree with you as well. In fact there are lots of fields where better voice recognition will always be welcome.


    yes but my point was that not everybody uses it and also the voice recognition doesn't support all the languages.

    kettch wrote:
    
    Have you reported these bugs? I don't mean here either. Of course, not everybody agrees on what constitutes a "bug".


    Explorer selection doesn't work
    Explorer leaves empty folder when deleting files
    Explorer status bar shows the wrong file sizes on refresh (and also when creating a new file it shows a negative value)
    Explorer doesn't remember folder view settings

    I'm pretty sure everybody agrees that those are bugs.

    kettch wrote:
    
    Because it sucks. Yeah, that's an opinion, but Nero products have made far more coasters for me than i'd care to remember.

    I can't remember nero ruining a DVD/CD unless it was of bad quality or the burner drive or the burned firmware didn't have the right media support.

    kettch wrote:

    Uh-huh, and most users can't be bothered to go looking. I've used a few third party sidebar-type applications and many of them are weird and confusing to customize beyond the most basic options.


    Vista's sidebar has only basic options so I don't see why you should discard the other solutions because advanced options look confusing: you could just don't set them. the third-party solutions also have a lot more widgets than Vista sidebar does.

    kettch wrote:

    This is completely subjective. The memory footprint issue has been beaten to death.


    no this is not subjective because that's the ram vista uses without counting the one cached by superfetch.

    kettch wrote:

    Also been beaten to death. Although anything that requires third party tool on XP is not a viable option for 99% of the userbase.

    I don't see why: just like people could go and download windows live installer they could download and install tools like sandboxie.

    kettch wrote:

    Meh, this is software that is going to run almost continuously for a couple of years. Amortized over even a few months it's not really that expensive.


    amortized or not they're still a lot of money that people could spend for something else. with the same money I would have to spend for ultimate here in europe (500€) I could build an high-end PC or buy one of the best mobiles available (n95, iphone or the toshiba g900) and that says it all.

    kettch wrote:

    There's tons of things that I can't live without that XP will never have.


    personally I don't see many of them. in some cases I see things that in Vista got worse than XP (for example backup, the new network center that when you connect to internet without a router (dial-up or PPPoE) turns all the file sharing/music sharing/et. off for all the connections unless you risk everything by turning the firewall off by chosing "Private Network" for your internet connection, defrag gui doesn't even show a percent bar, etc.)

  • User profile image
    YearOfThe​LinuxDesktop

    Oguz wrote:
    

    Where is the improvement below?

    - New network stack


    I personally hate how they designed the network center that as soon as you set up a public connection it turns all the sharings off.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - New audio stack


    I'm not an audiophile so I don't think I care and also most of those features have been offered by many ac97 audio drivers (realtek for example) for a long while.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - New services security model


    I doubt the end-user would care about that.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Better memory managment


    so better that I get continuous swap despite having plenty of free ram,

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Paremtal controls



    onecare family is free and brings many parental control features to XP.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Support for newest hardware


    at the cost of less support for older hardware and I doubt companies would drop support of hardware on XP with XP still having 90% marketshare.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Readyboost


    benchmarks show no significant improvement except for boot time (that's still slower than XP's)

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Bitlocker


    there are already tools for cripting hard/drive and partitions

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - User adjusteble Shell language


    what?

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - IIS7


    for the price of a windows vista ultimate here in europe I can buy a windows server so I think the latter choise is more appropriate.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - DirectX 10


    that doesn't bring a lot of concrete things to graphics except speed improvements.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows Color System (WCS)

    I don't work with graphics so I don't think this affects me.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Better power managment



    actually I found laptops with an XP well configured (you can set up power-saving for wi-fi network cards, etc from the network card hardware proprerties) last more than when running Vista

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Reliability Monitor with  XML


    well having a graph of my crashes isn't one of the best features I would wish.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Address Space Layout Randomizer (ASLR)
    - Kernel Patch Protection
    - Automated System Recovery (ASR)


    as I already said unless you connect directly to the internet the chance being hit by a remote 0-day exploit (that those features are meant to protet from) is pretty low

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows Shadow Copy


    it slows down the system (also every setup and update takes a lot more to install) and wastes space so I prefer using an incremental backup tool (like NTBackup).

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Tablet PC functionality and touch input support

    if only everybody had a tablet pc...

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows SideShow


    I prefer syncing contacts/calendar/tasks with my phone rather than bringing a laptop with myself just to see them.

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows Aero UI

    you can get flip3d (and even better) functionality with certain tools that run also on XP. also XP has a lot of unofficial themes that look very nice.

    [quote user="Oguz"]

    - Live Taskbar Thumbnails

    you can obtain this too with third-party tools yes, they won't be able to watch a video in real-time from the live preview however I doubt
    everybody does that

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Instant search

    you can have instant search on XP too with WDS/GDS/YDS. it isn't integrated with the start menu however it's still easy accessible (with GSD you have just to tap Ctrl twice).

  • User profile image
    jellowjacket

    Ray6 wrote:
    Mmm .. your post could probably summarised as:

    'Why buy Vista? .. if I get XP, then do this, then do that, then do this, then do some more of that .. then I have a Vista equivalent'

    That sounds like a lot of hassle to me.




    I agree with your point.  I just installed a GPS unit in my 17 year old vehicle so now it's as good as the 2008 autos Big Smile

    This post seems to be just another "Why I hate Vista" rant. Smiley

  • User profile image
    YearOfThe​LinuxDesktop

    jellowjacket wrote:


    I agree with your point.  I just installed a GPS unit in my 17 year old vehicle so now it's as good as the 2008 autos

    This post seems to be just another "Why I hate Vista" rant.


    this is more "would you buy a new model of your car if the new model was only a restyling with minor enhancements many of which the manifacturer just retrofitted (for free) for your previous model?"

  • User profile image
    andy_hanger​18

    jellowjacket wrote:
    
    This post seems to be just another "Why I hate Vista" rant.


    Agreed. Lots of useless statements that are not backed up in anyway, or are just plain wrong.

  • User profile image
    Massif

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    
    Oguz wrote:
    

    Where is the improvement below?

    - New network stack


    I personally hate how they designed the network center that as soon as you set up a public connection it turns all the sharings off.



    I personally love it, although it can be annoying when you forget that you've never used a certain network before. At least I feel safe.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - New audio stack


    I'm not an audiophile so I don't think I care and also most of those features have been offered by many ac97 audio drivers (realtek for example) for a long while.


    I'm not one either, but per-app volume controls is a life-saver

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - User adjusteble Shell language


    what?



    As in, in Ultimate you can install Japanese, and then use the OS as japanese, you don't need to buy the dedicated Japanese version.

    This is huge for multi-lingual people, and testers.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - DirectX 10


    that doesn't bring a lot of concrete things to graphics except speed improvements.



    Oh, except radically altering the entire 3D graphics pipeline? (By adding Geometry Shading, and removing the dedicated Pixel / vertex shader division.)

    No, nothing concrete.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows Color System (WCS)

    I don't work with graphics so I don't think this affects me.



    Really? my desktop simply looks better under Vista. (Like, just the background picture.) XP really lacks the vibrancy when I have to go back.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Reliability Monitor with  XML


    well having a graph of my crashes isn't one of the best features I would wish.



    It's unbelievably useful, as you can relate your crashes back to a specific event far more easily than before. Especially useful when the crashes are so hard that you don't get feedback about what crashed. (Or when unsigned code is involved.)

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Address Space Layout Randomizer (ASLR)
    - Kernel Patch Protection
    - Automated System Recovery (ASR)


    as I already said unless you connect directly to the internet the chance being hit by a remote 0-day exploit (that those features are meant to protet from) is pretty low

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows Shadow Copy


    it slows down the system (also every setup and update takes a lot more to install) and wastes space so I prefer using an incremental backup tool (like NTBackup).



    And yet "Previous Versions" is my favourite feature.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Tablet PC functionality and touch input support

    if only everybody had a tablet pc...



    I do! It rocks. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit 100million other people.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Windows SideShow


    I prefer syncing contacts/calendar/tasks with my phone rather than bringing a laptop with myself just to see them.



    It does much more than that... Check out the SideShow remotes for media-centre PCs.

    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    

    Oguz wrote:
    

    - Instant search

    you can have instant search on XP too with WDS/GDS/YDS. it isn't integrated with the start menu however it's still easy accessible (with GSD you have just to tap Ctrl twice).



    It doesn't work as well when it comes to the help and control panel as the built-in vista search does.

    Remember, just because you don't see the value doesn't mean there isn't any. But if you don't see the value, don't bother - no-one will make you.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    Actually it's a bit poor.

    Under XP Live Messenger renders the Vista type buttons, but can't merge the close into the rounded corner. It does, at least, use the title bar colour from your current colour screen.

    Live Writer stays as the XP style, but ignores your menu colour in favour of a blue effect shared between the menu bar and the toolbar. Which jars if you have a non-luna default title colour selected.

    Photo Gallery uses the Vista style control buttons. But chooses a different blue than live writer for the title bar (ignoring your windows colour settings)  and darker non-fading blue for the toolbar background.

    3 apps. All under "live" all with a different style of rendering titles, control buttons and toolbars.

    WHY?!

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    blowdart wrote:
    3 apps. All under "live" all with a different style of rendering titles, control buttons and toolbars.

    WHY?!

    I don't know Sad

    But Writer changed a lot (in the UI) between betas, so there's hope that they'll all be consistent when they get released (for example, Messenger and Mail look very nice right now, and they're the closest to being done)

  • User profile image
    YearOfThe​LinuxDesktop

    Massif wrote:
    

    I personally love it, although it can be annoying when you forget that you've never used a certain network before. At least I feel safe.


    XP SP2 was also secure because it was opening ports only on connections you configured as part of your home network. on Vista instead I can't use any dialup connection (my ADSL pppoe connection or UMTS through my cellphone) without it shutting down all files/printer/media sharing. nonsense.

    Massif wrote:
    

    I'm not one either, but per-app volume controls is a life-saver



    most apps have already separated volume controls the only one that comes in my mind that doesn't have one is Flash however unless you visit weird sites at work I don't think there's nothing to worry about.

    Massif wrote:
    

    As in, in Ultimate you can install Japanese, and then use the OS as japanese, you don't need to buy the dedicated Japanese version.

    This is huge for multi-lingual people, and testers.


    they could have bought english XP with MUI Big Smile

    Massif wrote:
    

    Oh, except radically altering the entire 3D graphics pipeline? (By adding Geometry Shading, and removing the dedicated Pixel / vertex shader division.)


    what do you think that the geometry shading and pixel/vertex shaders unification brings to? better performance. geometry shaders allow you to create/destroy objects dinamically on the GPU instead of doing that on the CPU, the pixel/vertex shaders unification allows you to distribute in a better way shaders elaboration bringing guess what? better performance.

    Massif wrote:
    
    Really? my desktop simply looks better under Vista. (Like, just the background picture.) XP really lacks the vibrancy when I have to go back.


    I don't seem to see any difference on my monitor that is connected to 2 PCs, one running XP and the other running vista where I just applied the same background just to see the "additional vibrancy" (both are connected with DVI and both have the monitor drivers installed and no, I'm not using a B&W monitor).

    Massif wrote:
    

    It's unbelievably useful, as you can relate your crashes back to a specific event far more easily than before. Especially useful when the crashes are so hard that you don't get feedback about what crashed. (Or when unsigned code is involved.)


    I usually remember the last things I did on my PCs so I don't have much problems backtracking causes of crashes. also crashes could be caused by something you did long before last events so not all the times the crash analysis tool could help.

    Massif wrote:
    
    And yet "Previous Versions" is my favourite feature.


    yet when your HDD breaks I believe it would be more useful to have real backups made with a real backup tool on another drive/computer. with incremental backups every single file change is stored and since you write somewhere else other than being safer it's also much faster.

    Massif wrote:

    I do! It rocks. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit 100million other people.


    when you buy one now it already comes with Vista so I don't think the "moving to vista" problem would apply here.

    Massif wrote:
    
    It does much more than that... Check out the SideShow remotes for media-centre PCs.


    that sounds cool, but what's cooler is that I've been able of doing that for ages with BeMused on s60 phones. personally I couldn't care less of seeing my media library on the remote while I can look it on screen or on the computer :O

    Massif wrote:
    
    It doesn't work as well when it comes to the help and control panel as the built-in vista search does.


    help already has a search system, why wouldn't you use it? also on control panel if you switch to classic view you can find anything immediately.

    Massif wrote:
    
    Remember, just because you don't see the value doesn't mean there isn't any. But if you don't see the value, don't bother - no-one will make you.


    I see the value but if you look now at the Vista start menu and see the only noticeable tools that weren't backported are:
    - Calendar (I use outlook because I have a MS smartphone so I don't need it and if I needed a calendar come on, there are hundred others out ot there)
    - Contacts (on XP there's the address book)
    - DVD Maker (Nero already does that job and has some advantages (supports more video formats, etc.))
    - Sidebar (as I already said there are better alternatives with far less CPU/Memory footprint and a lot more gadgets)
    - Voice Recognition (not available in my language)

    as you could understand things start getting really, really sad.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    PaoloM wrote:
    
    blowdart wrote:
    3 apps. All under "live" all with a different style of rendering titles, control buttons and toolbars.

    WHY?!

    I don't know

    But Writer changed a lot (in the UI) between betas, so there's hope that they'll all be consistent when they get released (for example, Messenger and Mail look very nice right now, and they're the closest to being done)


    Messenger to me has gone backwards. Look at the "is typing" functionality in a window. It's a STATUS message. Put it in the status bar, not at the bottom of the conversation window. Oh damn, that's right, the status bar, or at least that bottom bit of the window has adverts in it instead.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    blowdart wrote:
    
    PaoloM wrote:
    
    blowdart wrote:
    3 apps. All under "live" all with a different style of rendering titles, control buttons and toolbars.

    WHY?!

    I don't know

    But Writer changed a lot (in the UI) between betas, so there's hope that they'll all be consistent when they get released (for example, Messenger and Mail look very nice right now, and they're the closest to being done)


    Messenger to me has gone backwards. Look at the "is typing" functionality in a window. It's a STATUS message. Put it in the status bar, not at the bottom of the conversation window. Oh damn, that's right, the status bar, or at least that bottom bit of the window has adverts in it instead.

    That's true. Did you point that out to the Messenger team?

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