Coffeehouse Thread

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Police State - It's Coming?

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  • User profile image
    phreaks

    Is everyone really fine with the current trend of eroding social and civil liberties?

    Every minuscule action is being legislated, there is no presumption of privacy, the government can spy on your phone or electronic correspondence without a warrant, terrorism laws are being abused to jail citizens, etc...

    This isn't a political issue, regardless of your ideologies, what do you think of this? Am I just being reactionist? Paranoid?

    I read this today:

    Wisconsin News wrote:

    Hoping to deter crime by expanding the use of surveillance cameras, Aberdeen passed a measure that empowers the city government and police to require cameras in new developments.

    The Police Department, the Department of Planning and Community Development, and the Department of Public Works will decide whether a new residential, commercial or industrial development must install cameras at "strategic locations" before a development permit is issued.

    Cameras installed at new developments will be connected to a watch room at the police station.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/harford/bal-ha.camera07oct07,0,1394895.story


  • User profile image
    typemismatch

    re:"are being abused to jail citizens" - can you back that up?

  • User profile image
    harumscarum

    I think you are being a reactionist and Paranoid but someone has to. 

  • User profile image
    phreaks

    typemismatch wrote:
    re:"are being abused to jail citizens" - can you back that up?


    Sure, there was a story a few months back about a teenager in the UK whom was charged with violating the Terrorism Act of 200 for possessing "The Anarchists Cookbook".

    In the US, all you need to do is read the Patriot Act and the Real I.D. Act, if that doesn't make you shudder, then nothing will.

    We don't know how many citizens have been charged under the Patriot Act, because the federal government doesn't have to disclose those charged. It's a matter of national security, ya know.

  • User profile image
    phreaks

    harumscarum wrote:
    I think you are being a reactionist and Paranoid but someone has to. 


    So you think it's good for the State to install cameras outside your home and monitored at the Police station?

    Wow.

  • User profile image
    Red5

    We're an experiment that is a little over 200 years old; not much considering the age of other nations.
    I am willing to bet an America 75 years from now will be much more a police state than it is today. It is inevitible. I don't like it, but that seems to be natural course of things.

    The Feds can't win.

    If they don't crack down on terrorist acts, they are the first to blame when another skyscraper is knocked down in the name of Islam. "You didn't do enough to prevent this from happening!"

    If they do crack down, they are guilty of eroding our freedoms.  "I want my privacy!"

    Which are we more comfortable living with?

    Cameras in the neighborhood seem a bit excessive....

  • User profile image
    harumscarum

    phreaks wrote:
    
    harumscarum wrote:
    I think you are being a reactionist and Paranoid but someone has to. 


    So you think it's good for the State to install cameras outside your home and monitored at the Police station?

    Wow.


    That would be great. I just got new neighbors and their lawn mower was stolen from their carport. I always leave my stuff out in my car port so I would be able to catch who did it. I also have some critter that keeps getting into my trash at night so I could get it arrested too.

  • User profile image
    JeremyJ

    I for one like the idea of cameras everywhere. 

    People get the mistaken impression that someone is going to be watching their house 24/7.  There are not enough police officers to be able to do that.  If a crime happens in an area then they look at the tapes.  Otherwise they just get erased after a certain amount of time.  If it helps catch the bad guys then great!

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    phreaks wrote:
    
    harumscarum wrote:
    I think you are being a reactionist and Paranoid but someone has to. 


    So you think it's good for the State to install cameras outside your home and monitored at the Police station?

    Wow.


    We've had this in the UK for a looooong time now. I simply don't see the issue.

    It's public property, what happens on public property is the responsibility of the state, and if the cameras provide a deterrent effect and/or make it easier to identify & aprehend purpetrators then I see nothing wrong (but there was an article that got Dugg last month about some report which said the cameras have a neglibile effect, I never read it, but you know how Digg is the new rallying ground for Ron Paul fanboys).

    The notion of the police using them to "track your every move" is often overstated. Tapes are rarely kept for more than a week and never reviewed, unless someone lodges a request or there's an investigation going on. Also importantly: the cameras are not centrally monitored or networked on any large scale.

    What "right" or "liberty" of yours are these cameras taking away from you? You maintain your right to anonymity and freedom of movement.

    In 1984, the cameras were two-way and forced upon you, including private property. This is nothing of the sort, just sensationlism using scare-mongering.

    I'm more concerned about actual limits to our freedoms. Get the so-called PATRIOT act and the numerous legislations with "Internet", "sex", "chat room", "terrorism", and "copyright" in the same sentance removed, then we'll talk.

    Write to your congressman.

  • User profile image
    irascian

    There's a great movie coming out on DVD (it had a limited theatrical release a few months ago) in a few week's time called "Taking Liberties" which shows how quickly our freedoms have been eroded in the UK since Blair came into power. It's mainly a humourous film but it's shocking to find out how much has been done "under the covers" with no real publicity in our mainstream media.

    There's also a rather nifty video that The Pet Shop Boys have put together on the subject of ID cards and surveillance which is currently playing on the home page of their web site at http://www.petshopboys.co.uk

    (I think this is the point where blowdart pops in to make some reference to Barbara Streisand or Judy Garland Wink)

  • User profile image
    PerfectPhase

    raymond wrote:
    Vote the public officials who put in the cameras out of office and replace them with elected officials that will pull the cameras out.


    Only problem with that is every candidate wants something we don't so you have to pick the lesser of all the evils.  The one that wins claims you want what he does as you elected him, when you really don't, you just really don't want what the opposition wants.

    Sometimes I wish there was an option for 'I don't want any of them, they are all idiots!'

  • User profile image
    raymond

    Vote the public officials who put in the cameras out of office and replace them with elected officials that will pull the cameras out.

    I am getting the distinct impression that 2008 will be another 1972 on the national level. Smiley

    Cool

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    PerfectPhase wrote:
    

    Sometimes I wish there was an option for 'I don't want any of them, they are all idiots!'

    It's called "moving to Seland", but they don't want you doing that either Wink

  • User profile image
    Bas

    W3bbo wrote:
    

    We've had this in the UK for a looooong time now. I simply don't see the issue.

    It's public property, what happens on public property is the responsibility of the state, and if the cameras provide a deterrent effect and/or make it easier to identify & aprehend purpetrators then I see nothing wrong (but there was an article that got Dugg last month about some report which said the cameras have a neglibile effect, I never read it, but you know how Digg is the new rallying ground for Ron Paul fanboys).


    It's not a popular opinion, apparently, but I agree. The camera's that are over here aren't actively monitored. The only time the images are viewed, is when there has been a case of vandalism, or a robbery or something, to try and identify the perpetrators. Opponents of the surveillance camera's often argue that this does nothing to prevent crime. That's true, but once there has been one, it increases the chance of identifying the perpetrators and finding out exactly what happens. I'm thinking that the alternative is worse.

    And besides, even if the camera's are actively monitored, then what? Then some bored surveillance guy will know that I leave for work at 8:30 every morning and get back at 17:00, that I do my groceries on saturday and that I go to the pub on thursday night. If the state wants to keep a record of that, they're more than welcome to, because I don't care if they know these completely useless facts about me.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    harumscarum wrote:
    
    phreaks wrote:
    
    harumscarum wrote:
    I think you are being a reactionist and Paranoid but someone has to. 


    So you think it's good for the State to install cameras outside your home and monitored at the Police station?

    Wow.


    That would be great. I just got new neighbors and their lawn mower was stolen from their carport. I always leave my stuff out in my car port so I would be able to catch who did it. I also have some critter that keeps getting into my trash at night so I could get it arrested too.


    One or more of my neighbors has desided that the miniscule patch of green in my front yard (a rarity with a townhouse) is a wonderful spot for letting their dog take a dump.

    So, I'm going to fight back by installing a camera so I can figure out who did it and drop the offending dookie on their car.

    Why do people expect that there would be privacy outside?

  • User profile image
    dahat

    There is no presumption of privacy in public and this action is perfectly legal. Don't like it? Don't go outside... same thing people do today to avoid being seen by the police.

    If you want to be afraid of an impending police state... I'd be far more worried if I were you with the activities of some pediatricians out in Massachusetts where "the paranoia over parents is so strong that the AAP encourages doctors to ignore 'legal barriers and deference to parental involvement' and shake the children down for all the inside information they can get."

    You know... like interrogating kids as to the alcohol and drug habits of their parents... not to mention asking about firearms in the home and even filing police reports on entirely legal gun possession.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    ScanIAm wrote:
    Why do people expect that there would be privacy outside?


    I think the bigger beef here (my only in this case) is that the government is forcing private groups to install security cameras rather than allowing and/or encouraging them to do it on their own.

    I'm all for state owned and run cameras in public (and publicly owned) places... however see it as the responsibility of the private property owners to decide if they want to spend the money on a security camera system, let alone network it with the police.

  • User profile image
    phreaks

    ScanIAm wrote:
    
    harumscarum wrote:
    
    phreaks wrote:
    
    harumscarum wrote:
    I think you are being a reactionist and Paranoid but someone has to. 


    So you think it's good for the State to install cameras outside your home and monitored at the Police station?

    Wow.


    That would be great. I just got new neighbors and their lawn mower was stolen from their carport. I always leave my stuff out in my car port so I would be able to catch who did it. I also have some critter that keeps getting into my trash at night so I could get it arrested too.


    One or more of my neighbors has desided that the miniscule patch of green in my front yard (a rarity with a townhouse) is a wonderful spot for letting their dog take a dump.

    So, I'm going to fight back by installing a camera so I can figure out who did it and drop the offending dookie on their car.

    Why do people expect that there would be privacy outside?


    That's fine if you want to install a camera on YOUR property, it s a completely different thing if the Government wants to install a camera on YOUR property.

    Being inside or outside has nothing to with privacy.

    Private land is private.

    /Same goes for W3bbo

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