Coffeehouse Thread

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Leopard 10.5

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  • User profile image
    xporvista

    Well, just wanted to see what the deal was with Macs, as I have never used one before. So I thought I would compare Vista to 10.5. I case you were wondering, a buddy of mine works in the beta team for Apple, which is final now. Anyways, I really like the Mac for the time I spent on it. Vista is definitely similar, but seems to lack that visual quality that the Mac has. The fit and finish of a Mac is much more uniform. Vista's UI is all over the place, as far as icons from 95 and some new ones that are just OK.

    I think the original longhorn would be very similar to Leopard, but I think as far as usability, Leopard has it. I really, really hope Blackcomb/Vienna goes above and beyond peoples expectations.

    I know that an OS isn't about the fancy animations and transitions, but it does help sell the product. It just appears there is a lack of graphics in Vista that make it seem new, as apposed to the icons used in XP.

    I saw some of the icons that were being developed for Vista and they were tons better, in fact it seems that the concepts there are totally possible get replaced with crap. Why doesn't Microsoft visually clean up Vista with SP1 and make it more usable. I will admit it has it advantages over XP in some areas, but some functionality was definitely taken out.

    There is my venting for today...

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    Talking of spack osx, how is it possible for a company to announce:

    "Leopard is the world’s most advanced operating system."

    Do they have to provide some some of analysis to prove it? or is it just a blank meaningless statement designed to 'wow' (irony intended) their followers?

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    stevo_ wrote:
    Talking of spack osx, how is it possible for a company to announce:

    "Leopard is the world’s most advanced operating system."

    They always do Smiley

    I was actually expecting jokes about fax machines or scanners, intead of photocopiers this time Smiley

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    I read through the list of 300 improvements, and was pretty underwhelmed to be honest. Nothing in there struck me as earth-shattering. Where was the big killer feature that Jobs was keeping under his hat?

    Certainly not enough to make me drop £129 on it, but it does look a lot better than Vista.


  • User profile image
    JChung2006

    Gratuitous eye candy aside, one nice thing about Leopard is that it will support Java 6, something that Windows and Linux have done for almost a year now.  Most advanced OS, my arse.

  • User profile image
    rcardona

    That goes back to the old Windows 95 == Mac '89 days. To Apple, Microsoft has never caught up to the MacOS UI. OS X 10.0/1 over Win2000, OS X 10.2/3 over XP and 10.4/5 over Vista. It's nothing new. When Se7en is released, it will be "trumped" by OS X 10.6/7

  • User profile image
    Cannot​Resolve​Symbol

    JChung2006 wrote:
    Gratuitous eye candy aside, one nice thing about Leopard is that it will support Java 6, something that Windows and Linux have done for almost a year now.  Most advanced OS, my arse.


    There's a lot of those kinds of things in their "300 New Features" chart.  Like "Copy, open, modify, or delete files in Mac OS X that you saved to your Windows partition. Leopard understands the Windows FAT32 disk format."  Or "Turn any photo you find on the web into your Desktop Picture with one click."

  • User profile image
    nightski

    My dilemma atm is whether to get a Macbook Pro with Leopord and put Vista on it, or wait for the rumored Dell m1530.  I hate waiting, but don't want to have a worse Windows experience in any fashion since I will probably use it 95% of the time.

  • User profile image
    TimP

    As an OS X user, some of the new features are dubious.

    "Customize the look and feel of Terminal with new window settings. You can set the background color, text color, and opacity of your windows."

    I've been doing that for years.

  • User profile image
    rjdohnert

    This fight is never ending and has raged for decades.  The Hatfields and McCoys of the IT industry.  Of course Linux has joined the fray since Michael Dell in trying to save his company decided to preload Linux on systems and even made the declaration that Linux is surpassing Windows which if he had done any research would have seen it wasnt true.  Anyhow, interesting fight to watch and one thats not going to end.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    I went through the 300 features list and about 50% of them are a little weak - fortunately for Apple there are about three dozen or so that will make me drop the money for it even if nothing else had changed.

    It is pretty impressive to me that posters are able to slam the features of something that is unreleased ... shall we wait until the 26th and see some real reviews and Niner trials before we write it off? Or are we just setting out our stall and assuming that nothing Apple can do will make it 'better than Vista' - whatever that means.

    The problem with the better than Vista thing is that it sort of depends on your perception - in my opinion and with my experiences Tiger is already better than Vista - but I expect others disagree.

    It might have got expensive as I have three active Macs - luckily I can get 5 licences for $199 and don't have to spend time deciding which versions I want - when Microsoft can get to this level of simplicity then I'll be happy.

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    JChung2006 wrote:
    Gratuitous eye candy aside, one nice thing about Leopard is that it will support Java 6, something that Windows and Linux have done for almost a year now.  Most advanced OS, my arse.


    Well, there is one difference. On Windows and Solaris, you can get Java6 for free; on MacOSX, you are forced to shell out £129 for it.

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    nightski wrote:
    My dilemma atm is whether to get a Macbook Pro with Leopord and put Vista on it, or wait for the rumored Dell m1530.  I hate waiting, but don't want to have a worse Windows experience in any fashion since I will probably use it 95% of the time.


    Well, according to this, it'll run better than you might expect.


  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Ray6 wrote:
    
    JChung2006 wrote:
    Gratuitous eye candy aside, one nice thing about Leopard is that it will support Java 6, something that Windows and Linux have done for almost a year now.  Most advanced OS, my arse.


    Well, there is one difference. On Windows and Solaris, you can get Java6 for free; on MacOSX, you are forced to shell out £129 for it.


    There is actually a dev download available for J6SE which works on 10.4 - but what differences are there between 5 and 6 that mean 10.4 users will be missing out? Do users even know or care - apart from the Shared VM that Apple implemented and Sun still haven't.

  • User profile image
    Ray6

    Rossj wrote:
    I went through the 300 features list and about 50% of them are a little weak - fortunately for Apple there are about three dozen or so that will make me drop the money for it even if nothing else had changed.


    Biggest feature seemed to be BootCamp, oddly enough.

    Rossj wrote:
    
    It is pretty impressive to me that posters are able to slam the features of something that is unreleased ... shall we wait until the 26th and see some real reviews and Niner trials before we write it off? Or are we just setting out our stall and assuming that nothing Apple can do will make it 'better than Vista' - whatever that means.


    Well, despite the NDA, there is already a lot of information about Leopard out there. I guess it is entirely possible that Jobs could be holding something back until the last minute though ....

    And it really is no different than a lot of opinions I read about Vista, from folk who have never actually run it.

    Rossj wrote:
    
    The problem with the better than Vista thing is that it sort of depends on your perception - in my opinion and with my experiences Tiger is already better than Vista - but I expect others disagree.


    Yes, I expect we'll be hearing a lot of that sort of thing. I have already read one article saying that the Mac community should not expect too many changes because MacOSX is near perfect as it is ....

    The problem here is that with such a defensive user base, Apple is saved the effort of making any great strides in their OS. So what we see is some very nice eye candy, but very little else. But I'm hopeful that real changes will come when they are able to dump the PPC line once and for all. But for me, this is a pretty weak paid-for upgrade.

    Strangely enough, most of these improvements were in the bundled applications, not the actual OS ...

    Rossj wrote:
    
    It might have got expensive as I have three active Macs - luckily I can get 5 licences for $199 and don't have to spend time deciding which versions I want - when Microsoft can get to this level of simplicity then I'll be happy.


    Tough for you maybe, but most folk will upgrade their PCs rather than buy Vista at those prices anyway. The decision will only be between Home Premium and Ultimate.



  • User profile image
    Ray6

    Rossj wrote:
    
    Ray6 wrote:
    
    JChung2006 wrote:
    Gratuitous eye candy aside, one nice thing about Leopard is that it will support Java 6, something that Windows and Linux have done for almost a year now.  Most advanced OS, my arse.


    Well, there is one difference. On Windows and Solaris, you can get Java6 for free; on MacOSX, you are forced to shell out £129 for it.


    There is actually a dev download available for J6SE which works on 10.4 - but what differences are there between 5 and 6 that mean 10.4 users will be missing out? Do users even know or care - apart from the Shared VM that Apple implemented and Sun still haven't.



    ... that download is a beta. Will it be made available to non-Leopard developers after Leopard is released?

    Well, if developers aren't happy, then somewhere down the line, users suffer. The reason the Mac has not enjoyed a huge share is because developers tended to steer clear from the platform. The reason that they are flocking to it now, is because users are happier to take the risk because it can now run Windows. So they have can have all those apps that are still missing on the Mac platform (I still cannot find a decent home finance app that is supported by my bank, or anything that comes anywhere close to Office OneNote - but I can now run them on a Mac).

    Java is not really the big issue; the question of whether or not developers can trust Apple - that is the issue.

    James Gosling has made his feelings on the subject pretty clear; he's dumped his Mac and gone over to OpenSolaris.

    Mind you, after Jobs's recent comments on Java, I wondered what took him so long ...










  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Ray6 wrote:
    
    Yes, I expect we'll be hearing a lot of that sort of thing. I have already read one article saying that the Mac community should not expect too many changes because MacOSX is near perfect as it is ....


    If anyone thinks Tiger is near perfect, then they need their eyes testing.

    Ray6 wrote:
    
    So what we see is some very nice eye candy, but very little else.


    I disagree. Sure Apple makes the functionality look nice, but I don't believe that it is form over function. Having said that I am not liking the idea of coverflow everywhere that really is all about form Sad

    Back to my Mac looks nice, and sure you can do this with other tech but I think the Apple version of remote file access to your macs at home will be a *lot* simpler than the other methods.

    DTrace is going to make a lot of developers very happy, and again packaged up in a UI it *looks* very nice, but has a very well defined function.

    For me, the killer feature, and you might think this a little lame - is the ability to limit how long my kids can spend on the computer each day - for a solely consumer OS this is nice, and although you can do this on Windows I have a big issue with many consumer features of the OS only existing in a given form because they have 'evolved' from the corporate versions of these features.  Hard for me to describe adequately, but it appears to me that whilst Apple's focus is the consumer and making features accessible to them, Microsoft's focus is the corporate world and consumers get those features they want with the 'corporate' UI and not what makes sense for consumers.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Ray6 wrote:
    
    ... that download is a beta. Will it be made available to non-Leopard developers after Leopard is released?



    Well, if developers aren't happy, then somewhere down the line, users suffer. [/quote]

    And the feedback I've seen from developers is that they are very happy with the performance of the 6 beta. Still quite like to know what is in 6 that isn't in 5 that will make *users* complain.

    And you remember 5 was only working in 10.4? Doesn't work on 10.3.9

    Ray6 wrote:
    (I still cannot find a decent home finance app that is supported by my bank, or anything that comes anywhere close to Office OneNote - but I can now run them on a Mac).


    The biggest problem with the Mac isn't that these apps don't exist - it is that they are really hard to find.

    Ray6 wrote:
    
    James Gosling has made his feelings on the subject pretty clear; he's dumped his Mac and gone over to OpenSolaris.


    James Gosling? The Sun employee? Erm... sounds like he did it just to get Zones and ZFS

     
    JAG wrote:

    There is one area that's a problem: when I close the lid on my laptop, it keeps right on running. It doesn't suspend. I have to manually shut the system down.


    Riiiight ... useful then.

    Ray6 wrote:
    
    Mind you, after Jobs's recent comments on Java, I wondered what took him so long ...


    It isn't as loved as much as it once was, you're right.... by lots of people, I worked with Java from 1996 to 2002 so I know how the JavaLove fades over time.  I recently started looking again, and one of the things I was interested in was Quicktime Java (QT itself is huuuge) but I've no confidence it'll still be around in 24 months time.










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