Coffeehouse Thread

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WPF usage poll.

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  • Rossj


    Very (very) unscientific, but soon I shall be done with WPF and moving onto another project and a different role, but I was wondering how many people here are actually using WPF at the moment - and thought an unscientific poll would be a good start so ...


    Do you currently use WPF?

    - Yes, love it
    - Yes, dislike it
    - No, waiting for tools
    - No, not likely to.

  • Dr Herbie

    Rossj wrote:
    
    Very (very) unscientific, but soon I shall be done with WPF and moving onto another project and a different role, but I was wondering how many people here are actually using WPF at the moment - and thought an unscientific poll would be a good start so ...


    Do you currently use WPF?

    - Yes, love it
    - Yes, dislike it
    - No, waiting for tools
    - No, not likely to.


    Not likely to.

    We have four long-term customers with mature systems.  WPF brings nothing to the table that they need or want.

    Herbie

  • cheong

    Rolled out one last week, waiting for customer's comment.

    Personally I don't feel very big improvement to our development flow. So neither like nor dislike it.

    Recent Achievement unlocked: Code Avenger Tier 4/6: You see dead program. A lot!
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  • AndyC

    Used it. Would say I like, but don't yet love it. Now that there are some reasonable tools to work with I'll hopefully get chance to use it some more though.

  • TommyCarlier

    I like the idea of WPF, the architecture and the advanced concepts. But I don't currently use it in any project. WinForms still suffices for what I (and our company) need. I have a lot of experience with WinForms (and Win32), I know the possibilities and the problems, I know how to make it go fast. To build up the same depth of experience in WPF will take me years, and there's nowhere near as much documentation available (articles, demos, code snippets, ...) as there is for WinForms/Win32.

  • harumscarum

    No, not likely to.

    Based on designs for current customers and prospects the cost and risk of using WPF doesn't make sense.

  • vesuvius

    1. Yes I love it, it's fun to use and even I can have input in design. Hate coding with brushes etc in Win32.
    2. No don't disklike it, I love it
    3. Both learning bit by bit and waiting for tools. I feel a lot of vendors are abundantly confused as to what their roles should be though. Dev components have a WPFBar suite that copies outlook 2007, Actipro as well. I don't really see the point in having a WPF ribbon as opposed to the GDI ones. In fact most of the GDI ones are better. People that want something that looks like office may as well use GDI as that is mature and stable. Infragistics have hit the nail on the head as they are offereing a whole UI fully exploiting WPF features like the carousel view and so forth. Apart from them no-one seems to be doing anything creative at all so it seems they will lead the market in this space for the forseeable future. Most vendors have gotten used to the fact that windows design is led by Microsoft, and usually they imitate augment it. They just haven't 'cottoned-on' that they have to lead the way insofar as creativity. All the other vendors are soley concentrating on building a datagrid. If you've read this thread you know what I think of them. Progress in getting WPF components will be tardigrade. I'm also scared that people will get sick of having a program that 'spins around all the time' whenever you want to get something done. I fear the carousel may be great for the first few uses, then one will want to just switch it off and have something static.
    4. As you have just completed a project utilising WPF, Please answer your own questions. I'm sure we are all dying to know you thoughts, fellings, problems, wishes and so forth are.

  • Rossj

    vesuvius wrote:
    As you have just completed a project utilising WPF, Please answer your own questions. I'm sure we are all dying to know you thoughts, fellings, problems, wishes and so forth are.


    I guess I like it, but don't love it.  WPF is really very powerful, but unfortunately I think it may have been released too early as it is very very easy to use but unfortunately it isn't as flexible as it could be and with no idea when the next release is likely to be I've no idea if anything that I want will be available in the future. I should note that I don't use XAML *at all*, far too messy and complex Smiley

    And for all of the advances in improving compositing, the fact that non-WPF components cannot take part in it is a major draw back - allowing me to host a HwndHost and have it composite would make WPF a fantastic solution. Right now I'd say it is an advance from WinForms, but I don't think it is the end-game - 3/4 years and I suspect it will be something else. 

    One of the other problems we had was video drivers, on some machines WPF was fantastic and yet on others various things (such as animating opacity) would leak handles at a furious rate and this can only be due to old/crappy video drivers. If we were trying to ship a consumer app where we couldn't control the hardware it wouldn't be feasible.

    So yeah, it is okay, does some things really well and with little effort, but in places it is far too concrete in its implementation - if that makes sense.

    Will I be using it again? Probably not. That is as much my change in career path than anything else though (Cocoa FTW).

  • Minh

    No, not likely.

    Waiting for the Vista marketshare bandwagon to stop by... say around 50% PM?

  • Sven Groot

    I have used it in toy projects only. I do like it, but I don't really have a need for it anywhere at the moment. I'm not a GUI guy anyway.

  • vesuvius

    Rossj wrote:
    
    One of the other problems we had was video drivers, on some machines WPF was fantastic and yet on others various things (such as animating opacity) would leak handles at a furious rate and this can only be due to old/crappy video drivers. If we were trying to ship a consumer app where we couldn't control the hardware it wouldn't be feasible.

    So yeah, it is okay, does some things really well and with little effort, but in places it is far too concrete in its implementation - if that makes sense.


    This seems to be a recurring sentiment, one omitted by the leading article/vid today. Silverlight or WPF/E does not perform great on machines that aren't old. Relatively new PC's have problems. Nowhere else are you controless with regard to hardware as the internet. If you're involved with business, you can assess their hardware and decide whether to proceed or not.

    The long and the short of it is WPF is entering computing by gradual osmosis as opposed to this immediate new feature complete product.

    It's rigidity in places will come to haunt it but like Vista this will evolve gradually. XP and GDI are very mature, and the features beind added to software now are no longer as significant as 'creating a GUI'. If everyone did not run as admin in XP from the start then Vista would certainly be less popular than now.

    It is the ostracision consequent to malperformant and insufficiently equipped hardware that is WPF/E's major drawback. Incidentally, read this.

  • wkempf

    I've been dabbling with it as a learning experience, and will be using it for real in the near future.

    I believe that WPF is definitely the future of UI development.  It solves many of the issues that UI developers have faced in the past (it's easier to separate UI logic from domain/business logic, the tooling and ability to create tools is much better, the ability to style the application is now easy... not to mention, that IMO at least, declaritive UIs are much easier to deal with, and I've been using them for about 7 years now). 

    It's not utopia, however.  The libraries are new, and it shows in many places.  There's missing control types, and though you can often just style an existing control, or create your own much easier than you could in the past, this is still work that you shouldn't have to do.  There's behaviors that are non-intuitive, some of which are just things you have to come to grips with, and others are probably design mistakes that may need addressing in future versions.  There's places where types and/or methods are scoped as internal, when they should be made public.  There's places where it's difficult or impossible to extend the framework.  Or, as I already said, the framework is simply very new.

  • Sven Groot

    The performance issues don't help either. I've got a very weird one. I've got a databound treeview with a custom item style to include an icon. At first, all is fine. Once the amount of items in the treeview grows, I get the following: scrolling by dragging the scrollbar becomes incredibly slow. Strangely enough, scrolling with the scroll wheel or the up/down arrows on the scrollbar is just fine, it's just dragging that's slow.

  • alwaysmc2

    I use it, but so far I haven't taken advantage of it.  I need some tutorials.

  • JohnAskew

    WPF does require hardware, which is why I stated my biggest pain in development is old hardware. My goal is to use WPF for GUI frontends, smart clients, and Silverlight for web apps.

    Old hardware is the problem, not Vista, not WPF; that's my .02


    I remember saying when it first arrived that I'd never use "Windows" when DOS was so much faster and easier...

    I've learned that innovation is the funnest part of programming.

    I've a passion for the cutting edge and melancholy for those who call it the bleeding edge. I enjoy GUI work quite a bit.

  • Rossj

    JohnAskew wrote:
    

    my biggest pain in development is old hardware. My goal is to use WPF for GUI frontends, smart clients, and Silverlight for web apps.



    We got so frustrated with seemingly random handle problems, that we decided we would only run on Tier 2 hardware (hardware rendering) - but it didn't solve the problem entirely. On those machines where it does run well in Tier 2 it runs *very* well.

  • JohnAskew

    Rossj wrote:
    
    JohnAskew wrote:
    

    my biggest pain in development is old hardware. My goal is to use WPF for GUI frontends, smart clients, and Silverlight for web apps.



    We got so frustrated with seemingly random handle problems, that we decided we would only run on Tier 2 hardware (hardware rendering) - but it didn't solve the problem entirely. On those machines where it does run well in Tier 2 it runs *very* well.


    Ah, yes, Tier 2 as per Microsoft. Thanks for the jargon and resultant link, Ross.

    ..and the skinny of it (Tier 2 hardware):
    Manufacturer Model

    ATI

    Radeon models: 9550, 9600, 9800, and X-series

    Intel

    Intel GMA900 models: 915G

    Intel GMA950 models: 945G

    NVidia

    Geforce FX-series, 6xxx-series, and 7xxx-series

  • Ion Todirel

    love it, used it only on small test demo projects

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