Coffeehouse Thread

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This Will Make You LOVE SPAM !

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  • ZippyV

    Shreyasonline, you forgot that spammers use zombies to send mail. Spammers are not sending mail from their home computers.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Well, I have read many speculations from all you guys. Some have not read the entire thing properly. So I request you all to read the post properly. I will reply to all queries. I have thought about all the stuff well in advance before designing such system. I am only not sure about the TAX. This will be country specific. Some countries may not impose tax but some may. I dont care about the TAX thing. The main thing here is the inovation.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    ZippyV wrote:
    Shreyasonline, you forgot that spammers use zombies to send mail. Spammers are not sending mail from their home computers.


    I would like to clear doubt about "zombies"

    Zombies cannot pay for sending mail. So they cannot obviously send mail on their own.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Maurits wrote:
    phunky_avocado wrote: Ok, I'll bite...why?

    Maurits wrote: I think this is a very bad idea.


    Because email should continue to be free.

    EDIT:
    Don't charge me to send -
    I already pay enough
    To my ISP.



    Well, solicit emails or emails from close user group / FREE mail list will make the point that sending email to near and dears will be absolutely free.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    I am a teche, but I have through knowledge in commerce and finance as I do trade at The National Stock Exchange (NSE), India on regular basis. The basic thing in commerce "Demand and Supply" theory has been kept in mind while designing the system.

    Technical:
    The system is basically a extension in SMTP protocol, I call it "SIGNATURE EXTENSION". This has following advantages:

    1) Unlike SPF, Any email user can send emails from any computer/device directly to the recipents MX server. It is not necessary to submit the email to ISP/email service provider, like we do now using web browser/outlook express etc. The recipent server will accept any email if its "DIGITALLY-SIGNED". Before accepting the mail, it will connect to the signature verification server of the sender and verify the signature in the email. If the signature is right/true then the mail will be queued for delivery. This makes sure that sender has an email a/c with the server his email a/c recides. So no fake mails. How the SIGNATURE is created is my secret!

    2) Till the system is in place, the existing system will work fine as the new system is backword compatible.

    3) You do not have to link your bank a/c with your email a/c. So no hacking in your bank a/c. You will have to buy a prepaid credit in your email a/c before sending mails.

    4) there are many ... many ... many advantages. You can know this by reading posts regularly.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Jeremy W. wrote:
    The "email postage" idea isn't a new one (though congrats for thinking of it). The idea has been to charge something fractional like .01 cents/email. People who send a hundred emails a day will only pay 1 penny a day, or less than a dollar a month.

    But, folk who send millions will cost more.

    The "free to a friend" idea's an interesting one, but wouldn't that require a whole new email system? After all, email is effectively transient: once it's left each email server, it's completely forgotten (gotta love SMTP).

    How would you imagine such a system working or being implemented practically?


    The receiver of the email will decide the amount an unsolicitor has to pay to mail him.

    Now you may say, how will I know how much do I pay to email britney?
    well, thats a bit simple, you can connect to the SMTP server of the recipent, then using the new extension ask the amount you have to pay to mail britey. Obiviously, britney is a big celeb, so she may have set the default value for mail as $1000.00 (or even more if she hates SPAM) so you may not really email her, would you?

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Manip wrote:
    Are you stupid?

    Do you need to make five posts? You see that button with a pen Edit, it is an edit button, which means you can edit your posts .. USE IT!


    Well, I am answering to all the questions separately, as I recall things. If I edit my replys then someone may not observe that the earlier reply was edited. Hence, he may not read the reply. I know the edit function well before you did. You know the thing known as scrollbars ? USE IT!

  • shreyasonli​ne

    I beleive nothing is absolutely FREE in this world. You will have to pay for everything directly or indirectly, with money, time or some other thing which is not FREE.

    How ?
    See, I will give an example. You think email is free. Well, its not. You are paying your time to sort and delete all the SPAM, viruses etc. you receive every day. The email server owners pay for the bandwidth which is wasted because of SPAM, viruses etc.

    Well, I beleive if we stop SPAM (which is impossible, but just immagine a law where you are executed if you send SPAM!), how will a online company advertise its products? Some ads may really be SPAM for most of the people but a few people may really like it if they are looking for something like in the email ad? just think on it. Also imposing ban on SPAM will really affect the communication channel. Communication must be free(i mean you can send/receive message anywhere), but to make it credible, you must pay a premium for the facility.

    Hence, making email sending a pay option, we can bring back the credibility of using email. This system is designed so secure that only the person who knows the password to send an email can send it by his email-address. Hence, there will be nothing like spoofed emails. Spoofing email will be a part of history.

  • Maurits

    Have you looked into the "Bonded Sender" program?

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Maurits wrote:
    Have you looked into the "Bonded Sender" program?


    Noop, can you tell me and all fellow members about it ?

  • Manip

    Are you stupid?

    Do you need to make five posts? You see that button with a pen Edit, it is an edit button, which means you can edit your posts .. USE IT!

  • Manip

    Here is a link

  • Maurits

    http://www.bondedsender.com/

    Basically it works like this
    Company X puts up a bond (say, $10,000)
    Then the Bonded Sender service adds this company to their publicly queriable database

    Later, Company X sends you email
    Your email server checks the database and notes that Company X is bonded
    All further spam checking is skipped for that email! (yay)

    Suppose at some future point Company X actually does send a spam to someone

    That someone complains to Bonded Sender.  As a result, Company X loses their bond! (ouch)

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Maurits wrote:
    http://www.bondedsender.com/

    Basically it works like this
    Company X puts up a bond (say, $10,000)
    Then the Bonded Sender service adds this company to their publicly queriable database

    Later, Company X sends you email
    Your email server checks the database and notes that Company X is bonded
    All further spam checking is skipped for that email! (yay)

    Suppose at some future point Company X actually does send a spam to someone

    That someone complains to Bonded Sender.  As a result, Company X loses their bond! (ouch)


    Bonded Sender Program only makes sure that the registed user of bonded mail does not send SPAM. What about all others who are not bonded? I have a software programmed by myself called "Port Tester" (see my website). I can send 200 mails/min over a 64kbps connection. i.e. 12,000 mails/hour. What about stoping me? You may block me/ spammers who spam but this is equivalent to creating communication barrier. Will you put a bond of $10,000 or something to send emails? I dont thinks this idea will have many takers. Even spam blocking database companies are facing many lawsuits for blocking huge number of internet IPs. (search about lawsuits against SPEWS.ORG and you will find stuff I am talking about)

    If you have read my earlier post "Anti-Spam companies are Terorist for domain owners" you will find some stuff I am really suffering from.

    Also, here the receiver does not get anything in return. Whereas in the idea I am talking about, the receiver of e-mail gets paid. The money he receives by e-mail can be reused for sending an unsolicit email to someone else he wants to.

    Keep in mind that a SPAMMER/ a HACKER can never be stopped. They will find some or other idea to do what they want to do. So why not allow them what they want to do and regulate their activity? This idea is all about regulating and making email a more secure, trustworthy and reliable system to use.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    here's the bottom line about why your idea isn't going to go anywhere.

    There may be a new standard in the future, but it won't be decided by you. If you make a new mail transit protocol and start using it, it will not be accepted by the majority of server admins and ISP's

    It just won't.

    A standards board will have to get together to create a new protocol for email. Just like X.400-500, MIME, SMTP, IMAP, ect...

    Did Microsoft's MAPI become a cross platform standard for network email?
    And they're microsoft. You are you.

    The most you can do is provide an extra layer on existing protocol, which by nature is wide open. Lots of companies have already done this, and no one has emerged as a defacto standard. My wild guess is that your idea won't either.


    You are absolutely right. I really agree and I am fully aware of what you are talking. Even Bill could not make MAPI the standard. I am trying to get reactions from people about what they think of the idea. I will be trying to publish an paper in RFC, when I am very sure about the idea and its implementation. The technology is here and also the idea, the only thing important is its implementation. If implementation fail, so does the idea.

    The purpose of this thread is to find what others think about it, I had discussions with some of my close friends, now I want to get reactions from channel9 fellow members.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    Maurits wrote:
    http://www.bondedsender.com/

    Basically it works like this
    Company X puts up a bond (say, $10,000)
    Then the Bonded Sender service adds this company to their publicly queriable database

    Later, Company X sends you email
    Your email server checks the database and notes that Company X is bonded
    All further spam checking is skipped for that email! (yay)

    Suppose at some future point Company X actually does send a spam to someone

    That someone complains to Bonded Sender.  As a result, Company X loses their bond! (ouch)


    One more thing in Bonded Sender:
    You are company X, you put a bond of $10,000 ok.

    Now say some one in your company compromised on security and a "zombie" got implanted in one of network computer.

    Now, if the zombie was targeted by a competitor/hacker, they may command that zombie to SPAM using your company name.

    And, you lose your bond of $10,000.

    Now what? will you renew your bond again?

  • Rossj

    As far as I can see the biggest problem you have is trying to charge people for a service that they have essentially had as free (or part of a package) for as long as they have been on the Internet. 

    How about I start charging you for visiting websites in order to try and cut down on advertising pop-ups? Doesn't sound so attractive now does it?

    Also it involves some participation from end-users and you won't get that, they just want to use email if they have to arse about with all this payment mallarky I don't think they'd bother - you'd probably just increase the growth of IM.

  • shreyasonli​ne

    You people may be confused with the finance and commerce part of it, let me explain it-

    First, let me clarify that I was quoting price/values in USD through the thread. It was just for understanding purpose as I think most of the people in this form know the symbol "$" and know its relation with currency. Now, let me twist things a bit.

    As this system is international, there will be no existing currency used by countries considered! There will be a new currency for the internet, I call it "electron". The value of one electron will be approximately equal to the value/amount required to send an e-mail. This value will be base value/face value of one electon. Actually, one electron is the value a sender must pay to the recipent of the email. The value of this 1e will be like $0.0001 or so (just an approximation). The recipent will decide the premium to be paid by the sender in order to e-mail the message to recipent. So, if you want sender to pay you $1, you must set the premium to e10,000. Got it? (if not red it again or ask about it to an economist, well, I am not an economist, ust clarifying)

    There will be a non-profitable organisation which will act as the Centeral Internet e-Bank. (Just like ICANN, IANA). The main work of this organisation is to issue "Promissary e-Note" called as "Electron" (Just like any central bank in any country who issues currency notes/paper money). This promissary e-note will be a diagram like a UDP diagram with many fields. Some fields in the diagram will be DIGITALLY SIGNED so that a diagram can be verified online for its trueness. This diagram will be more like a pay cheque. You can write the recipents name on them and DIGITALLY SIGN it with your a/c password. This diagram will be e-mailed to the recipent. After SIGNING gain with his pass, recipent will submit the diagram to the bank so that money transfer takes place between recipent and sender. (A bit complex process)

    There will be private online e-banks. This banks will provide banking solutions to email service company like yahoo.com/hotmail.com. This banks will be registered with the Centeral Internet e-bank and is accountable to the same. Well, anyone can open a bank, searching for customers is his duty. The interbank e-funds transfer/settlement will be done by the Centeral e-bank.

    Lets, take an example. Yahoo.com has an server a/c with ABC eBank. while hotmail.com has with BBC e-Bank.

    A user at yahoo.com will have a node a/c in ABC e-Bank like yahoo.com/user, here both the levels have their own pass. Same thing goes with the hotmail.com user.

    Now consider a yahoo.com user sendimg mail to hotmail.com user. The user enters his pass for sending email in compose form, writes msg and clicks send. Yahoo server will then connect to hotmail MX server. The yahoo server will provide a set of digital signatures. Hotmail server will quickly connect to ABC bank sign verify server and verify the signature, proving that the sender is not spoofing. Now, the email will be accepted with a e-cheque diagram with digital sign's of all parties invloved in the transaction(i.e. the user, yahoo.com, ABC e-bank) The diagram will be signed by the recipent server and send it for clearance to the BBC e-Bank server. The BBC e-bank server will again sign it and send the info to Centeral e-bank where the e-cheque is settled and the payments are made.

    The above process is quite alike what todays banks do.

    This may look like a friction movie of the year 2200, but this will happen some or the other day. You want it or not, this is bound to happen.

    Now what is your reaction ?

    Please, don't ask stupid questions on econimics if you don't understand it. Ask such questions to an economist, I am not an economist, I did consult this with a CFA (certified financial accuantant). He is one of my close friends.

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