Coffeehouse Thread

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This Will Make You LOVE SPAM !

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  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Rossj wrote:
    As far as I can see the biggest problem you have is trying to charge people for a service that they have essentially had as free (or part of a package) for as long as they have been on the Internet. 

    How about I start charging you for visiting websites in order to try and cut down on advertising pop-ups? Doesn't sound so attractive now does it?

    Also it involves some participation from end-users and you won't get that, they just want to use email if they have to arse about with all this payment mallarky I don't think they'd bother - you'd probably just increase the growth of IM.


    Many people do not read earlier posts. I request you all to read all my replys before posting the same questions again and again.

    Well, as I said early nothing is FREE, you have to pay for everything. (see above post on page 2)

    Hey, I am not try to charge you to send an e-mail to your mom / girlfriend. So relax, and see some earlier posts by me so that your doubts are clarified.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Maurits wrote:
    Jeremy W. wrote:
    Maurits wrote: Because email should continue to be free.


    Why?


    I don't really know.  It's basically a gut feeling.  I've come up with arguments for it but none of them really convince me.
    Snail mail is pay-per-envelope, certainly.  But you pay the postal service, not the addressee - and you certainly don't pay whatever the addressee decides is fair.
    Consider mailing lists.  They send out to lotsa people, who sign up.  I suppose they could just refuse to let you subscribe a sender-pays email address.
    I suppose a top-level domain could be created for these kinds of email addresses to avoid confusion - something like .pay-to-send, for example.  But I wouldn't want to send to anyone with such an email address.



    If you subscribe to a mailing list, you will not receive any mails until you add their e-mail address in your FREE mail list. Once you have dont this you will receive all mails from the address without making the sender pay to anybody.

    Well, to have a top level domain like .pay will be a good idea to avoid confusion. So that the e-mail address will look like say shreyas@technitium.pay !

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    thechris wrote:


    this idea will not stop spam at all, it will just charge the unwitting consumers running zombieboxes for it.

    realistically, a better idea would be a non-spammers list.  people who can see if they are receiving email from others on the non-spammers list.  but i don't know if this is possible given the current email schema.


    I am saying that spamming cannot be stopped. (you have to stop the entire internet to stop spam). And Blocklists/Allowlists are worst things I personally belive. This lists gives the owners of the database GOD like powers. They can throw anyone in the black list while keeping some spammers (who pay them regularly) out of the list. e.g. SPEWS.ORG

    For more details please see my earlier post to get idea how I lost my webhosting service of my website thanks to SPEWS.ORG and my hosting service providers policy.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    manickernel wrote:
    SenderID, SPF.... it is the solution. PLEASE!!! Let's move foward.


    I agree. SPF must be implemented first and right now before implementing any big idea. This will make the transition to the big idea simple as people will see the advantages of implementing SPF. This is going to encourage people to implement ideas like I am talking about.

    So implement SPF (see http://spf.pobox.com for details)

    my website www.technitium.com has SPF record. You too get one right now. If you dont unterstand how to do it, ask me I will guide you.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    thechris wrote:
    this idea will not stop spam at all, it will just charge the unwitting consumers running zombieboxes for it.

    realistically, a better idea would be a non-spammers list.  people who can see if they are receiving email from others on the non-spammers list.  but i don't know if this is possible given the current email schema.


    http://www.spamcop.net/
    http://spamassassin.apache.org/
    http://www.spamhaus.org/
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/spamassassin
    http://www.sng.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailscanner/

    open source has you covered my friend.



    Again,

    let it be open/close source, blocklist / allowlists are worst things. They create communication barriers which kills the base of communication. Read about basics of communication from any book in library (online/offline).

    BlockList are the things which makes FREE e-mail to lose its FREEDOM. They just take away someones right to send e-mails because their IP was used by a zombie to send e-mails. Now tell me what is the mistake of the IP owner? And still he has to pay for the communication barrier created artifically by the blacklist companies. See my earlier post for more details on side effects of BLACKLIST.

  • User profile image
    Manip

    As we discussed in that thread, your problems were not caused by the blacklists but instead by your crappy hosting company.

  • User profile image
    thechris

    still, making email pay-only will not work well,  you will only see free email services emerge and get used.  IM services will begin to include email-like features.  I think ICQ has had email-like features for a while.  once you have to pay:
    1.)  you need billing info associated with the email account.
    2.)  you lose anonymity.
    3.)  it may bring about more pay-per services.

  • User profile image
    Shrage

    manickernel wrote:
    SenderID, SPF.... it is the solution. PLEASE!!! Let's move foward.


    I Agree, Thas't the way to go.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Manip wrote:
    As we discussed in that thread, your problems were not caused by the blacklists but instead by your crappy hosting company.


    Yes, actually the carppy hosting company is responsible for the mess but, even the blacklist company SPEWS.ORG is equally responsible. They allowed the hosting company to add my domain name in the database without having any proof of spamming. Secondly, there is no "remove-me-please" request mechanism in the SPEWS.ORG database. They dont even accept e-mails as the domain "spews.org" does not have an MX record in DNS. And I would like you to visit the SPEWS.ORG FAQ and see what those stupid bunch of people have to say.

    This blacklist industry is not going to be in place after a few years. Already many of them are facing lawsuits against their stupid blocking mechanisms.

  • User profile image
    ZippyV

    Q: I'm not a spammer or spam operation... heck I hate spam, but my email is getting bounced by someone using SPEWS, or I can't access a website due to SPEWS based blocking.

    A: You maybe part of the rare "inadvertent blocking" that can occur when a spam friendly provider is listed in spews. Your best option is to try and educate your provider or switch to one who is not listed in SPEWS as spam friendly. SPEWS aims to avoid listing any non-spammer or non-spam support areas if possible - we just want to stop spam.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    ZippyV wrote:
    Q: I'm not a spammer or spam operation... heck I hate spam, but my email is getting bounced by someone using SPEWS, or I can't access a website due to SPEWS based blocking.

    A: You maybe part of the rare "inadvertent blocking" that can occur when a spam friendly provider is listed in spews. Your best option is to try and educate your provider or switch to one who is not listed in SPEWS as spam friendly. SPEWS aims to avoid listing any non-spammer or non-spam support areas if possible - we just want to stop spam.


    No explanation of what SPEWS.ORG does to save mankind from the most dangerous thing in the universe is going to get my webspace money back. So dont try to support SPEWS. For me they are really TERORIST. They are not going to live long. Bet. (I will bring them down)

    You will realise the problem when you become a victim of such a stupid thing where one simple user cannot protest about the mis-action taken against him. Talking any stuff is simple, you will realise the thing when you fall victim to such stuff.

    There is no other service provider in our city. To switch, I will have to leave broadband connection to get a plane old 56kbps dialup connection. This down grading is really painfull.

    I have given many advice to the service provider to solvethe blocking issue, but his stuff takes time. and I am loosing my web hosting money.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Jeremy W. wrote:
    Sorry, I was on my way out the door. I'm not suggesting taking away your freedom. I'm not actually for the idea. I just don't something like email "SHOULD" be free.

    You could, for instance, have Email2 where you had to pay "someone" to send it. If you had an Email2 address, you could only receive from Email2 senders. And Email2 senders have to pay "someone".

    Also, "free" and "freedom" are two very different things.


    The Email2 idea is also cool. Corporates who are tired fighting spam can come together to join a new Email2 system where e-mail is paid, fully professional, and there will be no spam. Email2 users can send the plane old e-mail but to send a mail to Email2 user will need one to have an Email2 a/c where he has to pay to email the recipent.

    Thus, e-mail can be made credible for professionals who dont want themselves interfered by spam.

    Does anyone have other comments on Email2 ?

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    shreyasonline wrote:

    Does anyone have other comments on Email2 ?


    I think Email2 sucks


    Thanks for the comments but you have to explain me why it sucks? If you dont answer I will think that you really suck hence you think everything else sucks.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    Aside from spam, I'd like to see mime get an overhaul.


    Explain a bit briefly what you mean to say.

  • User profile image
    Manip

    Yeah me too... Anyway what happens if this corp. doesn't like another org or country, can they just cut them off?

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    shreyasonline wrote:
    Beer28 wrote:
    shreyasonline wrote:

    Does anyone have other comments on Email2 ?


    I think Email2 sucks


    Thanks for the comments but you have to explain me why it sucks? If you dont answer I will think that you really suck hence you think everything else sucks.


    It sucks because you have to pay for it, plus just the pay system suggests a centralized post office, which defeats the purpose of mail exchange and the nature of the internet and free flowing networks.

    It would essentially centralize all communication at one nexus which would ultimately be controlled by one or more corporations. NO. I'd rather have spam.


    Hey, again there is a bit of mis-understanding. There will be centralization of only the payment part of the mail. The mail exchange servers will exist like they do now, only the digital e-cheque attached by the sender will be verified with the e-bank of the user before accepting email. Funds transfer only takes place centrally. The system cannot be controlled by any single entity. Every step in the protocal involves digital signatures of all the participants for sending a single e-mail.

    Email2 will be opted by people who are willing to pay for sending e-mail2 while the people who want to pay to use e-mail will pay by their time and frustration. As the usage of internet penetrates in countries like india and china the email servers are going to get choked very sevearly. The people who will opt for Email2 will enjoy benifit of verly low spam, they will receive money for each email they recieve, also they can send mag to a user of the old free e-mail system.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    shreyasonline wrote:
    Beer28 wrote: Aside from spam, I'd like to see mime get an overhaul.


    Explain a bit briefly what you mean to say.


    Mime is outdated. There could be a new FREE email protocol that could be tied into chat and so forth. Maybe an xml based protocol. Mime with the related and the boundries is flawed.

    Alot of times mime email generated by one client is misinterpreted by another. There should be something better. Also base64 bloats attachments. A unicode based protocol for text(2 bytes wide, no more quoted printable) with a full byterange (255 per char) encoding should be possible. Right now attachments have to be encoded to 0-127 7 bit only for standardization.

    What about an xml protocol where attachments are inline so there's no mistake about where they are relative to the document. There are lots of improvements to be made to MIME.


    I agree to your point. This will be happenning in comming years I think.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    Also, most MTS's will attempt to reformat the message redirecting to mailboxes with x-original-to and inserting other tags. There needs to be a seperation of the original message from the modifications made by the MTS. Also better support for encoding has to be made.

    Anybody on any network can totally read most people's email by packet capture. It's just an old system that has to get with the program.

    I'm not talking about a post office or pay regulation, that sucks, that's for the birds. I'm talking about making the free email we have now better and easier for clients to render the same way everywhere.


    Well to the extent of making MIME like XML I agree to you. But, paying for email is different think. This is made to act like the natures most easiest rule in commerce, "demmand and supply". To understand this you need to study some basice of commerce and economics. It will really help you to re-think on paid emails.

    Also, imagine you will be receiving emails, so you will also receive some money with it. Now, you can re-use the money in your a/c to send emails to others. You dont have to re-invest millions of dollars in order to keep mailling others.

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