Coffeehouse Thread

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This Will Make You LOVE SPAM !

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  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    thechris wrote:
    i guess it is a good idea so long as it doesn't get widespread use.  if this happens you will have the hassel of maintianing your whitelist (solicited list) and remebering to add people to your list to get email.  I don't think its worth it.


    The solicit list (or whitelist, if you want to call it that way) is a personal list. Its purpose is not to charge any one in the list. Each user has his own personal solicit list. So the e-mail company doesnot need to manage it, it must be managed by the user. Example, you have an pay e-mail account linked with a e-bank account and you regularly receive a few newsletters and e-mails from your friends or relatives. So, what you need to do is add their e-mail address in the solicit e-mail list.

    As many people start using this idea, the rest of the people will get tempted to the advantages and will open a new account soon. If you disagree, then when mos of the people on the net start using this, you will be simply forced to open a new e-bank account soon, isnt it ?

    thechris wrote:
    it really comes down to a whitelist though.  as you have it, it is too dangerous.  a limit of maybe 10 cents per email needs to be in place.  $1000 is too much.


    May be President of America would charge $1000 if the sender wants his e-mail to be read by the president. (President of India personally reads and replys e-mails daily. He spends atleast an hour a day checking e-mails. No doubt he cannot reply to thousands of e-mail, but he manages to reply most!)

    thechris wrote:
    its the equivilent of sending people blank cheques.  further, there is a monetary incentive for people to charge you unjustly, especailly if they can get over $1000!  for safety, the sender needs to determine the cost of sending or the maximum charge must be very low.


    The e-cheque is digitally signed by the payer (sender) and the e-bank. And before the e-mail is accepted, the e-cheque signature is verified at the senders e-bank. In digital or e-cheque (a encripted, digitally signed data packed) there is nothing like blank cheque. The signature has to be generated with the amount as one of the parameters. Else, the signature will fail verification test and e-mail is not accepted by the ESMTP server.

    thechris wrote:
    possibly a better system would be a warning system -- if spam is received, a warning can be sent to the ebank.  upon receiving X number of warnings, the account of the indivual is charged a predetermined amount.  this removes the receiver's incentive to charge the sender, and allows the sender the security of knowing they won't lose a weeks salary because they sent bad news.


    No need of this idea. This won't happen at all. The protocol is the key to prevent any mess.

    thechris wrote:
    i still say use whitelists if you think your time is that important.


    If the whitelist is independent of user then it's worth zero. The white list must be different for each individual. An spam for you may be a good information for a product I was searching! So a spam for you not necessarily is spam for me.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Beer28 wrote:
    I think you should help me and join the team to do MFC for linux(LFC), at least that has a chance at succeeding, so your efforts won't go in vein.

    Today I had a long chat with linux a developer, and he was all confused thinking LFC was a wine like runtime that interfaced real MFC apps instead of a new library that was a thin layer over Xlib that mirrored the MFC Class library and methods.

    When he found out they can still -l link normal linux libraries and use LFC and that LFC was really just the framework of MFC not a runtime for the real MFC, he was pleased. I think it has a chance at adoption in 2-3 years if it can be realized.


    Thanks for the invitation but, I really dont have that much time. Somehow I am finding time to work on this project as I am also a student studying Electrical Engineering (Electrical? I dont know why I am doing it, just satisfying my fathers wish)

    Beer28 wrote:
    I don't think your pay email system has a shot in hell. That's just my opinion, and as always I could be very wrong.


    Time will tell all things. Even if you (and many others) think that the idea is not very impressive, there is a local saying here and it says, "A good sales man can even sell soil at the rate of gold but, a bad sales man can never sell gold even at the rate soil." LOL. So I belive that the marketing of the idea is also the most important thing, isnt it ?

  • User profile image
    Dr. Shim

    thechris wrote:
    "I can't see any reason why the sender ought to hide under anomity."
    -spam reasons.  also see my posts about targeted spam.  there would be no way to easily do this because not all email is used by indivuals or even people.  some scripts send email to another computer that reads the email and does something.


    Forgot about that. Good point.

    shreyasonline wrote:
    I am working on making a draft for RFC !


    Good luck with the draft! You do have some fairly valid arguments, however, although I still am hesitant to agree with you.

    How about users which are subscribed to a fee-based e-mail services, like Hotmail offers? They may find the extra fee unnecessary. Or how about ISPs which haven't implemented the new system yet, how would they fair?
    I may be asking questions which you already answered, it's a long thread and I haven't read through it entirely. Smiley

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    Dr. Shim wrote:
    thechris wrote: "I can't see any reason why the sender ought to hide under anomity."
    -spam reasons.  also see my posts about targeted spam.  there would be no way to easily do this because not all email is used by indivuals or even people.  some scripts send email to another computer that reads the email and does something.

    Forgot about that. Good point.


    In the pay per unsolit e-mail scheme, automated bots or scripts cannot send e-mail without having an legimate e-bank account. So, it is really easy to reverse trace the e-bank account holder who is using his account for sending automated e-mails.

    Dr. Shim wrote:


    shreyasonline wrote: I am working on making a draft for RFC !


    Good luck with the draft! You do have some fairly valid arguments, however, although I still am hesitant to agree with you.

    How about users which are subscribed to a fee-based e-mail services, like Hotmail offers? They may find the extra fee unnecessary. Or how about ISPs which haven't implemented the new system yet, how would they fair?
    I may be asking questions which you already answered, it's a long thread and I haven't read through it entirely. Smiley


    Thanks. Many people would not agree upon the idea at a firt glance. May be they may see some friends using it and enjoying the benifits, and would finally opt for having one!

    The users who have already an payed a/c for e-mail service with providers like Hotmail, the Hotmail will decide upon schemes and upgrade facilities. It entiel upon them. ISP's have no role here other than swapping packets! ISP's can implement the protocol as a service to it's customers. Its again dependent on them.

    I think that there will be many service providers like yahoo, hotmail etc. who earn a lot from advertising. They may decide to pay a devident of like e500/month ('e' being the internet currency, e1 is the basic price payable to send a e-mail) So, an average user can send e-mails almost for free, unlike an spammer who needs more "e" to send millions of unsolicit e-mails.

  • User profile image
    thechris

    You must include an option to see if you can send solicited mail.  otherwise important things like order confirmations will not make it to you -- after all what buisness will risk losing $1000 because they send out a confirmation before they are on the users whitelist.

    i'm still against the setup because it uses monetary values.

  • User profile image
    shreyasonli​ne

    thechris wrote:
    You must include an option to see if you can send solicited mail.  otherwise important things like order confirmations will not make it to you -- after all what buisness will risk losing $1000 because they send out a confirmation before they are on the users whitelist.

    i'm still against the setup because it uses monetary values.


    In the SMTP protocol Extended, if the recipent is asking for amount that you dont agree upon, you can promptly give "QUIT" command and abort the mail transfer.

    In the case you stated, the recipent, who will be receiving the mail confirmation or have subscribed to a newsletter must add the respective sender's e-mail address in the solicit mail list. (The adding procedure is very simple and the solicit list can be managed very quickly and efficiently.)

    Using monetary values is necessary to make the irresponsible Spammers to pay for their act. Thus, only the mass unsolicit e-mail sending parties are hurt, while average user has to pay very little or no money for sending e-mail. (As I mentioned earlier, e-mail companies can pay divident, which they earn from the ad revenue, to users per month. This will help in keeping users send e-mails regularly with no expense.

    EDIT: Stop thinking that you need $1000 to send e-mail to everyone. Example given earlier was to give a picture about pricing a value. No doubt, you may have to pay more than $1000 to e-mail President of America or a big celebrity. Even Bill Gates may charge an appropriate amount (keeping in mind he receives 4 million e-mail per day) to maximise profit from the spam e-mails he receives! Just imagine if he charges $0.5 per e-mail and even if e-mail per day received by him falls by 50% (2 million) then he makes $1 million just be receiving e-mails !

  • User profile image
    Angus

    I have both good and bad thoughts about this service. Firstly I think it could be cool to earn loads of money just by receiving e-mail, this probably wouldn't happen though. You have a fairly good idea that could be very good with refinement. You keep mentioning the blokcages in communication, but I think your idea will cause lots of blockages in communication, thiis is because if you have to be added to someones free to e-mail list to send them messages for free you would have to contact them in other ways before-hand and ask them to add you to their free to e-mail list (let's face it, nobody wants to pay to e-mail someone just to ask them to add them to their free to e-mail list, if the person really hates spam and has added a very large charge to e-mail them). This would cause more methods of communication to be set up over the net, as I and I'm sure many others will not want to have to pay just to ask someone to add them to their free to e-mail list. The implications this system will have on e-mail communication over the net would be massive, the number of new people you would speak to by e-mail would decrease very greatly. Also I have made a simple e-mailer program in C# it allows me to send e-mails, currently I use my friends mail server as the mail host, I can send an e-mail under his name to myself by this method, so suppose one day I needed some money, I could just e-mail myself from his account through my program loads of times and charge $100s each time. This program doesn't work on any major server, but it could financially cripple someone if these sorts of systems could be implemented. This means some sort of new security would have to be developed, and also some programming languages would have to be changed, this is a pretty impractical thing to do in a situation such as the one we face today in the world. Some services need to send a registration e-mail to people so they can register for a service, you could charge lots to these companies accidentally wih a high price for spammers. Also you could buy some active e-mail addresses cheaply (yes there are companies offering just that, 30 million active e-mail addresses for about £50) then you take these e-mail addresses and add them to a database, write a program that applies for the service using each of the e-mail addresses, this would cost the company involved millions even if the active e-mail addresses had a fairly low charge for spam such as $0.10 or $0.01. This would be a quick and easy way to ruin many companies, the companies would have to write a program into their mail server which handles the registration e-mails that could contact the persons server berfore-hand and check the price they would pay to send the e-mail, then have a simple if statement that would decide whether to send the e-mail or not, you cannot just expect someone to add the companies e-mail to their free to e-mail list in the time it takes their registration to be processed, if the processing of the registration was made slower, i.e only send the registration e-mail after the person added the company to the free to e-mail list then the system of registering for a service may become too slow to do, the mail server would have to check the person's mail server every minute/hour/day/week/month... to give a good response time and also to make sure you can cater for the people who take a while to add you, i.e if you go on holiday and you don't add the company's e-mail address before, the company would need to check your mail server every minute/hour/day/week/month... to make sure you haven't just taken a week or two to add the company to your free to e-mail list as you have been on holiday and had no internet access. This would slow your mail server and the company's mail server down a lot, and as this could be the case with many different registations it may even crash one or both your and the company's mail servers. This would be a bad move becuase people would get to know that this is a way to crash a server so they would devise a simple program linked to a database of maybe inactive e-mail addresses so they knwo that the company will receive many requests for registration that would not be answered for months therefore giving the company a mandatory number of requests per day that their mail server must perform on top of the people who really do want to register. One solution to this is to have a deadline for giving the company free acces to e-mail you, but this may be hard for some internet users who want to sign up for a service, but can only get access to a service at irregular times, i.e not every Friday at 2:00pm. Your idea has a lot of potential, but it may need some refining as I have said before. I hope this will help you refine the service you hope to develop.

    Angus Higgins 

    EDIT: Another problem could be that people would steal the USB Flash Drives with the money on, although they couldn't use the money without the password it would prevent users from sending e-mail. This could be a problem for many people.

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