Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    andresfb

    I'm wondering if any one at the .NET team (or the community for that matter) care to comment on this article from Richard Grines.

    http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9211/ddj050201dnn/
     

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Richard Grimes wrote:
    So if you've reached this far, you will get the impression that I have a very cynical opinion of .NET.

    Yes, I most certainly do get that impression.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    A lot of it reads as "Microsoft haven't thrown away years of work and rewritten things from scratch in .NET, so they obviously don't think much of it." There are a lot of reasons that's clearly daft.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    He probably got fed up with all the Microsoft adverts making up the bulk of the magazine. Oh okay, I exagerate. A little.

  • User profile image
    Yggdrasil

    Richard Grimes wrote:

    The framework has become Visual Basic—it's intended for users to develop applications, but not for Microsoft to create operating systems


    And that's bad, because...?

  • User profile image
    barlo_mung

    Yggdrasil wrote:
    Richard Grimes wrote:
    The framework has become Visual Basic—it's intended for users to develop applications, but not for Microsoft to create operating systems


    And that's bad, because...?


    And it's not even true.  Watching the C9 videos they always ask the developers what tools they use.  Most of the time they say they use managed code where ever the can.

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    I know Richard. He's a C++ guy at heart.

    There's lots of people here who agree with his point of view. There's lots of people here who don't, too. Hint: every day there are more people switching from writing unmanaged code to writing managed.

    As I walk around I see more and more investments in .NET every day. From the SQL Server team to the Xbox Live team.

    To get into Windows, though, the bar is extremely high. Absolutely right about that. Windows and Office will probably be the last places that .NET gets used in. But, if that's all you look at you'll miss the massive movement to .NET inside Microsoft that's well underway.

  • User profile image
    Dr. Shim

    "The first casualty was WinFS. It's true that this technology made Longhorn slow, and in particular, WinFS made Outlook Express totally unusable. But rather than making this technology work, Microsoft chose to remove it. Reading between the lines, I doubt if this technology will ever return."

    Is that true? I had high-hopes for WinFS, since it sounded like a neat feature.

  • User profile image
    rhm

    I think he's full of crap. I've emailed him before about things he's written that were plainly bollocks but you just a self righteous reply in response. I suppose I should credit him for writing back, but it's a bit like the reply you get when you write to politician about a draft policy - they just restate their case without giving any attention to your points.

    Anyway, since others have picked holes in his arguments, here's one that hasn't been picked up :-

    My opinion is that Avalon, or more specifically, XAML, will mark the death of ASP.

    His argument is that they'll want to promote XAML because it can only be viewed (at least initally) on Windows machines so of course the obvious thing to do (at least in a conspiracy theorists mind) is to cripple or kill Windows Server's ability to serve regular HTML. So they would give up server sales in the hope of attracting more desktop sales? This argument doesn't take any account of what happens between buying the server and the client downloading the page - the decisions of the content  provider. Even if MS had the naive thought that pushing XAML as the new web language would result in more people switching to windows, this strategy wouldn't work because all the people who depend on the web right now to make money can't wait for users to be able to handle a new format. The result would be they'd just switch to other server technologies.

  • User profile image
    RobChartier

    Beer28 wrote:
    rhm,

    They think people are dumb. They think people are complacent. They think people can't see through it. They're wrong. They made me hate windows so much I will probably never use it again as an operating system.


    Just keep that mind closed and you will never be able to grow, change,....

    Back it up.  Why do you hate windows exactly?  Anyways thats off topic.



    Personally I agree with some/most of the VB and VB.NET comments he made.  There should have been some straight up restrictions places on VB.NET (option explicit, case sensitivity, etc..)

    Although, I dont think its complete useless.  There are many programmers that simply like the style of construct which VB/VB.NET offers.  And there are others (me included) that like the C variant style.  Give me my curley braces or go home.


    He states:
    "Microsoft treats .NET as a useful library to extend its products, and to date, it has not shown any more conviction to the framework."


    I think the fact that we have been seening much more innovation at a faster rate than anything Sun has ever did is a testiment to their conviction.  For example how long has it taken for Java to actually introduce Generics?  Too long.  Microsoft has that slated for v2 this year sometime.

    Also, there is no way any organization can simply rearchitecture/recode any sort of decent size project.  It will take time for the integration happen and they must see/prove if there is even any benefit in doing so.  How can we make a profit?  If you cant answer that, it simply should not be done.


    "XAML, will mark the death of ASP."

    Not a chance.  Try to tell every single non-MS user they have to switch to MS.  That will never happen. 

    What you will see though, is that the fact that we have XAML in our toolkit (for limited distribution models) we can leverage it.  The move to a XAML only based application distribution for the public market is not even on the radar scope.


    I think in the end Microsoft is simply experiencing some growing pains.  And this guy simply likes to * and complain that things are not done the way he sees it.

    MS knows they have to push this product in to the future with more requests for a boat load of clients with their own required feature set and that there are always going to be cynics.  IMHO, V1 was a good start.  Lets see how the final build of V2 plays.  What is going to be deprecated and what is not.  Remember it is simply NOT an ad-hoc opinion of a developer to deprecate or introduce any sort of new functionality.  The process is very rigorous.  And if you dont believe me, consider reading over a MS few blogs on the topic.

    -Rob Chartier

  • User profile image
    rhm

    1. MS Press just publish stuff based on its technical merit. I doubt the selection of authors has anything to do with how much they hate technologies outside the scope of the book they're working on. And even if it did, authors are still free to change their mind afterwards or slam new products they don't like as much. Basically, I don't see what the fact that Grimes has had books published by MS Press has to do with anything.

    2. Yes, MS did try to subvert Java. It was clear when Sun launched Java that it wasn't so much a development platform as a weapon to attack Microsoft. And just like MS used IE to kill Netscape after Andresen made his wise-* remarks about how the web made the OS irrelevant, MS was bound to respond in some way to Sun's attempt to make the OS irrelevant.

    I think most of the world doesn't actually give a toss about Sun's emphasis on platform independence. In fact I look around and I see many many cross-platform devkits, probably more than there are applications that actually make use of them. And most of them are free. Just look for boxed desktop apps written in Java. There aren't many. People that gave a toss about the true goals of Java were always free to download and run Sun's Java. Microsoft's attempt to get people to develop Java code that would only run on Windows failed long before Sun won their lawsuit. They failed because even though MS tried to improve on the execrable AWT toolkit, it was still a really poor platform for developing Windows apps compared to other options.

    3. If you "hate Windows so much I will probably never use it again", do I really have to ask what the hell you're still doing on Channel 9? Acting as an outreach officer for Slashdot I suppose.

  • User profile image
    Sampy

    Take a deep breath and chill out a bit man.

    And remember, there are real people behind these products so you should probably lay off the lines like "Because from a technical standpoint everything they do is horrible." A lot of people here (where I'm sitting at MS and on Channel9) disagree.

  • User profile image
    geekling

    Beer28 wrote:
    I forget that there are people that work at microsoft that read this. Sorry, you guys are doing great. Just because I don't like any of the .NET technology or MS corp doesn't mean I have anything against the people that work on this stuff.

    I understand it's just a job.


    I've got an honest question for you: how do you feel about people who enjoy targeting .NET via VB.NET, C#, Boo, whatever? Not because the job requires it, per say, but because they have the choice and chose .NET.

  • User profile image
    jonathanh

    The framework has become Visual Basic—it's intended for users to develop applications, but not for Microsoft to create operating systems or the revenue generating products that they base their profits on.

    Damn, and here I am on a team building a product on top of the framework, using pure managed code - how foolish we were to think we were actually going to sell our product and generate revenue! Smiley

    Richard also got pretty cranky about some aspects of .NET v1.0 in his 1992 book "Developing Applications with Visual Studio.NET", which I still have on my shelf. Constructive crankiness is good: it forces us to do better. I haven't kept track of his stewardship at DDJ but I bet they valued that crankiness too.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    scobleizer wrote:

    Hint: every day there are more people switching from writing unmanaged code to writing managed.

    As I walk around I see more and more investments in .NET every day. From the SQL Server team to the Xbox Live team.


    The thing is though Robert there are people switching from managed to unmanaged every day too, or from .Net to Java.  Given the next point it looks like you might be projecting your experience at Microsoft on the rest of the world, easy enough to do I guess.

    I don't see where the big deal is with Richard's comments, he had to use something as a day job and he doesn't like it. BFD, I've been like that with C# for the past 3 years.

  • User profile image
    matt0210

    Why would Microsoft want to kill ASP? Well, with installation of ASP.NET Microsoft sells a single copy of Windows 2003 and perhaps a handful of copies of Visual Studio.NET. The clients don't have to be Windows, so there is no extra sale to Microsoft (whether as a product or licence). This is hardly a great revenue generator, and worse, ASP.NET actually makes it easy to write the application so that it can be used by browsers other than IE. However, with a technology like XAML Microsoft gets to control the client.


    Statements like these make sense. Sometime las year I came across this link and it made sense. The biggest threat to Microsoft dominance is the ability to work on other machines within a MS workflow. Webservices hailed to be the next big thing are terrible for MS beacuse you don't need Windows. Web applications, same thing. People are moving away from Windows. The only logical thing to do is bind them to the OS. If the next killer app needs XAML (like many of the vidos posted on microsoft's homepage need to wrapped in an .EXE file) then people can't run it on linux. (Or on wine since the lockout).
    Makes perfect bussiness sense to me.

  • User profile image
    Tensor

    Re his VB Comments.

    I wrote a huge long rant. But then took a deep breath, counted to ten, and decided to spare you all - so here’s a medium length semi-rant instead Smiley

    1) VB <> vb.net  - true. So? If VB were to go forward it needed a change. He even says as much - "It has to be said that Visual Basic (classic) was getting rather tired It has to be said that Visual Basic (classic) was getting rather tired."

    2) VB programmers were pissed off that vb.net <> vb. Partly true - some were (I was not). What would piss them off more would be to force them to swap to c#. Vb.net took away some of the toys VB programmers relied on to get through the day, c# took away many more..

    3) VB was a marketing exercise. Partly true - from a pure compsci point of view, why create two similar languages that target the same platform? It’s a waste! Reason - there are hundreds of thousands of VB programmers. On one hand clambering up some ivory tower and accusing case insensitivity of being "juvenile", while on the other hand pitying the poor VB programmer for having to learn that, hey, inheritance might be good for something after all is pure hypocrisy. Of course MS had to do all it could to hold on to all those VB developers - this is the real world! Wake up and smell the Coffee - because with no VB.net a lot of VB programmers would have, and moved to Java. How can a multinational company justify a course of action that leads to it losing customers? Don’t believe me? Steve Does.

    In summary, re: "VB.NET has serious flaws that are not counteracted by the few benefits it gives."

    This is the typical belief the holier-than-thou java/c# person has of VB. The truth is it’s just that we come at it from different directions. This man needs to get off his high horse and take a trip through the trenches.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Beer28 wrote:
    Or did you mean that C and C++ coders are using .NET with C# and VB instead of C and or C++ or java?

    I don't know many of those that don't work for microsoft and appear in C9 videos. Maybe Sven.

    Oh come on... Can you please get off your high horse for a minute here? What in the name happened to you Beer? I remember, the first time you announced you were going to leave C9, writing that I liked your posts because we could usually "meet in the middle or agree to disagree." Although it was clear you preferred Linux/OSS and didn't like .Net very much, you viewpoint was at least slightly balanced.

    But all that's changed. You've turned into a regular Linux zealot, of which there are more than enough in this world. You've recently degenerated into turning nearly every thread into a debate on why Linux is better at whatever the thread was originally about, and you've started spouting untruths about Windows (like your recent insistence that there's no way to run unsigned ActiveX controls from the web, which you continued to argue even after I clearly demonstrated it to be not true).

    It seems that every online community needs at least one person like this. Practically every forum or newsgroup I've ever frequented does. I'm not talking about people that use Linux, or Firefox, or Java. There's nothing wrong with using any of those things. There's not even anything wrong with having the opinion that these things are better than their Microsoft equivalents.

    I'm talking about people that somehow managed to convince themselves that everyone who does like Microsoft products, everyone who loves working with .Net, people who've had lengthy discussions with University teachers about the virtues of Word over LaTeX (I'm not even talking about me here), that all those people are either doing so because they are forced to (for money or otherwise), or because they are stupid.

    I'm talking about people, like you, that seem to believe that everybody who doesn't agree with them is fundamentally wrong and deluding themselves.

    Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but that's just not how the world works. Things aren't as black and white as that.

    Guess what? I like Linux. I love tinkering with it, trying to get stuff working. I adore C++. I own the standard, and probably know more about it than anyone else at Leiden University, including the people who teach it. But I also like Windows. I like, and feel comfortable, with the way it works. I have always been a VB coder at heart, and love the changes that were made for VB.NET. I like .Net. In fact, I've got the ECMA CLI and C# standards sitting right next to the C++ one.

    If I, and many many more people with me, can unite these worlds without feeling the need to compete about them with others, then why can't you?

    Jamie often speaks of the middle. Well, here it is. Those who walk it know it is a treacherous path, but it is a satisfying one if walked successfully.

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