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Project Midori?

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  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    I just read about Project Midori on ars technica.

    It's supposed to be a derivative of Singularity, but no longer as a research project.

    Could the C9 Team put some pressure on the responsible team to give us Niners some more info? We would kill for a video interview of at least an hour long, with technical details, and (*drool*) diagrams.

  • User profile image
    Dovella

    2015 Big Smile

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    Dovella said:
    2015 Big Smile


    Too good to be true? yap, didn't read the original articles, but obviously singularity only worked because its processes had to be managed code.. unless they manage to support native via a crazy virtualization.. I dunno..

    On the other hand, it might well be singularity like in that, each process is virtualized by hardware.. but then singularity was all about "thats clunky and not intelligent enough to make performant choices"..

  • User profile image
    Cannot​Resolve​Symbol

    stevo_ said:
    Dovella said:
    *snip*


    Too good to be true? yap, didn't read the original articles, but obviously singularity only worked because its processes had to be managed code.. unless they manage to support native via a crazy virtualization.. I dunno..

    On the other hand, it might well be singularity like in that, each process is virtualized by hardware.. but then singularity was all about "thats clunky and not intelligent enough to make performant choices"..
    Singularity is written in managed languages and takes advantage of managed-code features like garbage collection and code safetly and all the other runtime stuff that managed applications get, but the code itself is actually native x86 machine code, translated from MSIL using the Bartok compiler.  So it's not that far of a stretch to imagine a Singularity-based operating system where "Midori-native" applications written in managed code coexist alongside unmanaged Win32 apps either running entirely separate from everything else on the system as with NTVDM or as a separate "subsystem" of sorts similar to the OS/2 or Posix subsystems in NT today.

  • User profile image
    Royal​Schrubber

    stevo_ said:
    Dovella said:
    *snip*


    Too good to be true? yap, didn't read the original articles, but obviously singularity only worked because its processes had to be managed code.. unless they manage to support native via a crazy virtualization.. I dunno..

    On the other hand, it might well be singularity like in that, each process is virtualized by hardware.. but then singularity was all about "thats clunky and not intelligent enough to make performant choices"..

    I don't know why everyone thinks managed OS needs virtualization to support old applications. Native code could still run in virtual memory inside x86 protected mode, and rewriting/adapting Win32 API probably isn't that big problem for MS.

    The way I see how singularity could come out is firstly as server OS - like how NT was originally used, then in future releases they would add desktop pieces if server core proves successful.

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    CannotResolveSymbol said:
    stevo_ said:
    *snip*
    Singularity is written in managed languages and takes advantage of managed-code features like garbage collection and code safetly and all the other runtime stuff that managed applications get, but the code itself is actually native x86 machine code, translated from MSIL using the Bartok compiler.  So it's not that far of a stretch to imagine a Singularity-based operating system where "Midori-native" applications written in managed code coexist alongside unmanaged Win32 apps either running entirely separate from everything else on the system as with NTVDM or as a separate "subsystem" of sorts similar to the OS/2 or Posix subsystems in NT today.
    No I understand what singularity is.. my point is - processes in singularity can only be managed by design.. even if they never enforced it in what they made.. being able to execute utterly natively without anything 'watching' would completely break the point of a structured system..

    Like I said.. maybe they could have win32 apps that ran in a specialized container that would virtualize the execution.. but how it would do that I don't know.. I suggested hardware.. but as I said.. singularity stated all along they wanted their seperation of execution to happen in the software (as well as hardware at points I guess).. because the software has much more scope about whats happening, and can better make decisions.

    All this also begs, why? do microsoft see the future of windows being an ever growing struggle to manage as it is? because I thought thats what developers thought.. but ms theirselves had a much clearer picture of how they manage iterations of the OS.. and how legacy is managed and retired over time yadda yadda.

  • User profile image
    Royal​Schrubber

    stevo_ said:
    CannotResolveSymbol said:
    *snip*
    No I understand what singularity is.. my point is - processes in singularity can only be managed by design.. even if they never enforced it in what they made.. being able to execute utterly natively without anything 'watching' would completely break the point of a structured system..

    Like I said.. maybe they could have win32 apps that ran in a specialized container that would virtualize the execution.. but how it would do that I don't know.. I suggested hardware.. but as I said.. singularity stated all along they wanted their seperation of execution to happen in the software (as well as hardware at points I guess).. because the software has much more scope about whats happening, and can better make decisions.

    All this also begs, why? do microsoft see the future of windows being an ever growing struggle to manage as it is? because I thought thats what developers thought.. but ms theirselves had a much clearer picture of how they manage iterations of the OS.. and how legacy is managed and retired over time yadda yadda.
    I don't think processes have to be managed inside managed OS, I think native code could be encapsulated inside x86 protected mode. See this article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_mode



    "In protected mode, there are four privilege levels or rings, numbered from 0 to 3, with ring 0 being the most privileged and 3 being the least. The use of rings allows for system software to restrict tasks from accessing data, call gates or executing privileged instructions.In most environments, the operating system and some device drivers run in ring 0 and applications run in ring 3."

    "In many operating systems, paging is used to create an independent virtual address space for each task. This prevents one task from manipulating the memory of another."

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    RoyalSchrubber said:
    stevo_ said:
    *snip*
    I don't think processes have to be managed inside managed OS, I think native code could be encapsulated inside x86 protected mode. See this article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_mode



    "In protected mode, there are four privilege levels or rings, numbered from 0 to 3, with ring 0 being the most privileged and 3 being the least. The use of rings allows for system software to restrict tasks from accessing data, call gates or executing privileged instructions.In most environments, the operating system and some device drivers run in ring 0 and applications run in ring 3."

    "In many operating systems, paging is used to create an independent virtual address space for each task. This prevents one task from manipulating the memory of another."

    Alright, clearly I'm not very knowledgable about native.. althought when I perhaps wrongly said 'hardware virtualization' I meant ; a hardware wall that can guarentee execution security between areas of memory yadda yadda.. which is really what I think you suggest by protected mode..

    But would this not mean that all native processes are all running in one big bubble? perhaps this is a fair requirement for compatability and to mimic the environment that win32 is today though..

  • User profile image
    Royal​Schrubber

    stevo_ said:
    RoyalSchrubber said:
    *snip*
    Alright, clearly I'm not very knowledgable about native.. althought when I perhaps wrongly said 'hardware virtualization' I meant ; a hardware wall that can guarentee execution security between areas of memory yadda yadda.. which is really what I think you suggest by protected mode..

    But would this not mean that all native processes are all running in one big bubble? perhaps this is a fair requirement for compatability and to mimic the environment that win32 is today though..
    But would this not mean that all native processes are all running in one big bubble?


    In Vista you need UAC to allow application out of its closed bubble. In every modern system every application that is not residing inside OS kernel lives in its own separate 'bubble world', since 386. Smiley

  • User profile image
    PerfectPhase

     
    What would be very cool is if they could start with a server core type OS, somethinmg with no UI, just a command prompt, but a rock solid unstoppable OS.  They can the add the UI latter Smiley 

  • User profile image
    wisemx

    PerfectPhase said:
     
    What would be very cool is if they could start with a server core type OS, somethinmg with no UI, just a command prompt, but a rock solid unstoppable OS.  They can the add the UI latter Smiley 
    That was called Windows for Work Groups v3.1 Smiley

  • User profile image
    Charles

    wisemx said:
    PerfectPhase said:
    *snip*
    That was called Windows for Work Groups v3.1 Smiley
    The Midori team is understandably not ready to go public..... I've talked with them before and they will let us know when the time is right. Do not hold your breath. It's an OS incubation project, not a Windows successor plan.....
    C

  • User profile image
    jason818_25​3.33

    Charles said:
    wisemx said:
    *snip*
    The Midori team is understandably not ready to go public..... I've talked with them before and they will let us know when the time is right. Do not hold your breath. It's an OS incubation project, not a Windows successor plan.....
    C
    Well, i still think it would be cool to hear more about this Midori.

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