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ASP.NET MVC is HTML's Last Gasp

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  • User profile image
    SCMcDonnell

    I recently went through a few demos of ASP.NET MVC. 

    I was thoroughly dissappointed. 

    This doesn't seem like a typical Microsoft product to me as in there is nothing truly innovative, unique, or even interesting about the implementation.  It seems alot like Ruby on Rails (thank God they didn't use the whole 'ActiveRecord' crap) with a .NET Twist to it.

    Also, if you take a look at the evolution of how Microsoft Products and Technologies are built, ASP.NET MVC is moving against the grain.  For example, WPF uses the concept of separating markup from code.  The same goes for Silverlight.  ASP.NET also used a more lax model of this before ASP.NET MVC.  Yet, with ASP.NET MVC we are shifting the paradigm back to integration of markup and code using those damned <% %> tags. 

    All of a sudden, I feel like I am coding in Classic ASP, PHP, etc.  I don't like it.  It lacks creativity and is a shift towards a boring standard of web development.

    Also, I have been wondering if the creation of ASP.NET MVC is admission of failure on the part of ASP.NET WebForms? 

    Finally, I attended VS Live here in Orlando and there was one speaker who was excellent.  He did some talks on Silverlight, SOA, etc.  One thing he noted is that AJAX is the last gasp of HTML.  I understand his premise now as I prefer to start using Microsoft Silverlight rather than ASP.NET MVC (which is the next version of ASP.NET from what I have heard).  Silverlight offers the tools and experience that I am used to with other Microsoft Products. 

    ASP.NET MVC is an awkward step backwards that doesn't fit the mold of what Microsoft has produced for us developers to be creative with.

    I understand why the ASP.NET team is moving in this direction but there has to be a better way - a Microsoft way to innovate this MVC concept.

    Let's not change the mantra to:  Your Potential.  Our Passive Agressiveness.  Wink

    Peace.

    -SM

  • User profile image
    JChung2006

    HTML is far from dead.  There are only about a few hundred million more Web browser users than there are Silverlight users, after all.

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    This is a very naive post, no offence.. but Microsoft DID try to make ASP.NET like winforms, they did have an entire control system that abstracted away from the user.. and the MVC _STILL_ has that control system.. the MVC is the plumbing for how an application functions, not something specific to its view.. and yea, the MVC has pushed away from using webforms..

    Webforms isn't a complete failure, personally I think a control like system should still be do'able.. but webforms was over done.. the MVC team says their looking into making a proper view engine for the MVC also..

    Your post has very little to do with the MVC, but instead seems to be bashing html for not being up to standard with sl/xaml/yadda yadda..

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    This may surprise you, but I there is still a big requirement for websites that allow folk to do stuff, without making Rocky Horror Picture Show out of the whole experience.

    It may be the last gasp, but I think it'll be drawing that breath for quite a few years yet.


  • User profile image
    Minh

    Ray7 said:
    This may surprise you, but I there is still a big requirement for websites that allow folk to do stuff, without making Rocky Horror Picture Show out of the whole experience.

    It may be the last gasp, but I think it'll be drawing that breath for quite a few years yet.


    I think it's time we move beyond HTML, cuz it's 2008 & we still get stuff like this:


  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Any Microsoft 1.0 implementation is a beginning of a journey.

    If you want to be an early adoptor, you have to take all the pains for granted.

    Come back when version 3.0 is out, you will rejoice.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    Minh said:
    Ray7 said:
    *snip*
    I think it's time we move beyond HTML, cuz it's 2008 & we still get stuff like this:


    Mmm ... folk can still make duff pages using RIA stuff y'know .... in fact the scope for them to do it will be an order of magnitude larger.


  • User profile image
    Minh

    Ray7 said:
    Minh said:
    *snip*
    Mmm ... folk can still make duff pages using RIA stuff y'know .... in fact the scope for them to do it will be an order of magnitude larger.


    Ray7 said:

    folk can still make duff pages using RIA stuff y'know

    Of course, but if they make bad pages, it'd be by design.

    I don't think the page above is by design. Devs are bad designer, but not THAT bad.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Maddus Mattus said:
    Any Microsoft 1.0 implementation is a beginning of a journey.

    If you want to be an early adoptor, you have to take all the pains for granted.

    Come back when version 3.0 is out, you will rejoice.
    Maddus Mattus said:

    Any Microsoft 1.0 implementation is a beginning of a journey.

    If MS wants to compete w/ Apple for brand love, they really can't afford to deploy any Microsoft 1.0 mediocre stuff anymore.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Minh said:
    Maddus Mattus said:
    *snip*

    If MS wants to compete w/ Apple for brand love, they really can't afford to deploy any Microsoft 1.0 mediocre stuff anymore.

    I don't share your view and I'll explain why.

    For me the Apple platform has no appeal. It's market is too small and it has too many restrictions. So what we have is a few key players writing software for it and a whole lot of blank space wich nobody can fill.

    Enter Microsoft. Anyone can develop anything on Windows. There are plenty of websites with documentation, plenty of developers willing to share their experiences, some guidance for Microsoft and plenty of 3rd party tools to help you along the way. The best thing is; Microsoft is open for feedback. So when they start out to build something new, they release CTP's and betas. When they release a 1.0 into the community, they will gather the expierences from the field and point out a roadmap for 2.0.

    You call it mediocre stuff. I call it developing with partners. Apple just dumps their software and runs.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Maddus Mattus said:
    Minh said:
    *snip*

    I don't share your view and I'll explain why.

    For me the Apple platform has no appeal. It's market is too small and it has too many restrictions. So what we have is a few key players writing software for it and a whole lot of blank space wich nobody can fill.

    Enter Microsoft. Anyone can develop anything on Windows. There are plenty of websites with documentation, plenty of developers willing to share their experiences, some guidance for Microsoft and plenty of 3rd party tools to help you along the way. The best thing is; Microsoft is open for feedback. So when they start out to build something new, they release CTP's and betas. When they release a 1.0 into the community, they will gather the expierences from the field and point out a roadmap for 2.0.

    You call it mediocre stuff. I call it developing with partners. Apple just dumps their software and runs.

    Maddus Mattus said:

    For me the Apple platform has no appeal.

    I was referring to MS' upcoming $200M "Free the People" ad campaign.

    Maddus Mattus said:

    Enter Microsoft. Anyone can develop anything on Windows.

    And that's part of the problem. MS' relationship to users have always been through developers. MS provide the tools, developers provide the experience. There really hasn't been pressure to provide good, consistent user experience on Windows until the Longhorn videos. All visible designers have left MS, so we know what happen there.

    That's a niche (providing good UX) Apple is trying to fill. Whether the have done that or not I don't know, I don't have a Mac. But the perception that they have is there.

    If MS wants to compete w/ that perception, they have got to stop releasing 1.0 software. (Or in C9's case, 0.8)

    Maddus Mattus said:

    You call it mediocre stuff. I call it developing with partners. Apple just dumps their software and runs.

    You call it developing w/ partners, I call it ignoring the users. I don't get the impression that Apple just dumps their software, though.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Minh said:
    Maddus Mattus said:
    *snip*

    You call it developing w/ partners, I call it ignoring the users. I don't get the impression that Apple just dumps their software, though.
    Good points!

    We can shake hands on all your arguments.

    But I still prefer the Microsoft platform Big Smile

    Consistent or not, atleast I am able to give my users something.

  • User profile image
    Bas

    Personally, I'd love to see HTML finally dropped as a web-application platform. It's about time we stop shoehorning applications into a language and protocol for serving up nicely formatted pages about cats and start getting to work with an actual application platform.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Bas said:

    Personally, I'd love to see HTML finally dropped as a web-application platform. It's about time we stop shoehorning applications into a language and protocol for serving up nicely formatted pages about cats and start getting to work with an actual application platform.

    Good luck!

    They can't even agree on a single document format, let alone an entire application platform.

    I hate HTML aswell, but I dont see any way around it.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Maddus Mattus said:
    Bas said:
    *snip*
    Good luck!

    They can't even agree on a single document format, let alone an entire application platform.

    I hate HTML aswell, but I dont see any way around it.
    The best features of an HTML app are that they are instantly updatable & the small initial download footprint. You you can pretty much achieve that w/ Flash & Silverlight apps today.

    One of the major differences is that there's a higher barrier to entry to create a Silverlight/Flash app than a HTML app. That could leave out the smaller devs & lower the diversity of ideas.

  • User profile image
    Meisinger

    MVC is not new and has been around for years so I don't really think that there can be anything really innovative on that front. You have a model, a view, and a controller... that's it.

    Maybe they could do an Model View Presenter... nope already done. Maybe they could separate the code that handles all the user actions and the code that handles all the rendering... wait... that's MVC.

    The things that I have been impressed with Microsoft as it pertains to MVC is the way they are developing it and releasing it. MVC hasn't hit v1 and yet we have gotten four solid code drops. Better yet... all the code is available to us to browse and change as we see fit. True we can't submit the code back to them but we can email Phill Hack and his team to discuss changes and ideas.

    Personally I hope they continue on this way.

    I remember a few years ago when everyone said HTML was dead. It was about the time that "Flash" made it to the browser and um... I could be wrong but I think HTML made it through that scare. All Flash is good for now are banner ads and games. Awesome. But I must admit... they look better than screen shot posted above.

  • User profile image
    nightski

    Maddus Mattus said:
    Minh said:
    *snip*

    I don't share your view and I'll explain why.

    For me the Apple platform has no appeal. It's market is too small and it has too many restrictions. So what we have is a few key players writing software for it and a whole lot of blank space wich nobody can fill.

    Enter Microsoft. Anyone can develop anything on Windows. There are plenty of websites with documentation, plenty of developers willing to share their experiences, some guidance for Microsoft and plenty of 3rd party tools to help you along the way. The best thing is; Microsoft is open for feedback. So when they start out to build something new, they release CTP's and betas. When they release a 1.0 into the community, they will gather the expierences from the field and point out a roadmap for 2.0.

    You call it mediocre stuff. I call it developing with partners. Apple just dumps their software and runs.

    I am a pretty hardcore .NET developer.  I develop professionally with the platform and in my free time.  Given that however, what you stated is pretty skewed.  You can develop for the Mac natively using languages like python or ruby.  Last time I checked, Python is higher on the TIOBE index than even our precious C# (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html).  It is very widely used and well known.  I am not saying that it is better than C#, just that it is a very viable language.

    Learning to develop for the Mac is not difficult, at least not any more than .NET/Windows.

    ASP.NET MVC imo is very important.  The OP had some things blatantly wrong about the framework, but I don't have time to get into them specifically.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    Meisinger said:
    MVC is not new and has been around for years so I don't really think that there can be anything really innovative on that front. You have a model, a view, and a controller... that's it.

    Maybe they could do an Model View Presenter... nope already done. Maybe they could separate the code that handles all the user actions and the code that handles all the rendering... wait... that's MVC.

    The things that I have been impressed with Microsoft as it pertains to MVC is the way they are developing it and releasing it. MVC hasn't hit v1 and yet we have gotten four solid code drops. Better yet... all the code is available to us to browse and change as we see fit. True we can't submit the code back to them but we can email Phill Hack and his team to discuss changes and ideas.

    Personally I hope they continue on this way.

    I remember a few years ago when everyone said HTML was dead. It was about the time that "Flash" made it to the browser and um... I could be wrong but I think HTML made it through that scare. All Flash is good for now are banner ads and games. Awesome. But I must admit... they look better than screen shot posted above.
    Nm, figured it out on my own.

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