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WPF : Do I dare to take the jump?

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  • User profile image
    turrican

    I'm building a WCF client/server application @ work. This will eventually manage 70% of all data we got. Right now, It's WinForms. I would like to rewrite it in WPF. A lot of clients are still XP. However, that's not the issue since WPF seems to work fine in XP as well. My issue is do I dare to take the jump? Is it really the future or will it be replaced by something else soon? Will it be as long term as WinForms?

  • User profile image
    jamie

    when microsoft buys coreldraw and integrates wpf /silverlight seemlessly - you can count on a million new anti-flash developers... over night.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    jamie said:
    when microsoft buys coreldraw and integrates wpf /silverlight seemlessly - you can count on a million new anti-flash developers... over night.
    So, basically... It is time to forget WinForms and go WPF all the way?

  • User profile image
    jamie

    turrican said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    So, basically... It is time to forget WinForms and go WPF all the way?
    i have no idea.  i just know adobe hates corel - and it is getting shut-out.  but.... there are millions of users...


    sure you get painter, and kais and photopaint... but coreldraw users - thats what they should want...


    *above is based on idea that adobe users - use flash - but have always been hostile to millions of corel users. 

    We were banking on corelRave to be the flash killer... but it was garbage for file size - but actually was intuitive.


    we are all waiting... an army to take expression suites to next level


    buy corel!  Smiley  (but not word perfect..)



    </ pretending to represent all corel users>

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    jamie said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*
    i have no idea.  i just know adobe hates corel - and it is getting shut-out.  but.... there are millions of users...


    sure you get painter, and kais and photopaint... but coreldraw users - thats what they should want...


    *above is based on idea that adobe users - use flash - but have always been hostile to millions of corel users. 

    We were banking on corelRave to be the flash killer... but it was garbage for file size - but actually was intuitive.


    we are all waiting... an army to take expression suites to next level


    buy corel!  Smiley  (but not word perfect..)



    </ pretending to represent all corel users>
    jamie do you like Expression

  • User profile image
    jamie

    brian.shapiro said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    jamie do you like Expression
    too different.  ui wise.

    corel invented the property bar remember (err the ribbon - 6 years ago)

    even if ms didnt want to buy all of corel - or any of it - they need to do a silverlight/wpf deal.

    hear that steve?  a deal!  phone calls and stuff! woo hooo!

    CorelDraw - WPF Certified partner,,,   or whatever   Seemless integration/export   etc

  • User profile image
    DCMonkey

    If you need a data entry grid note that there isn't one included yet. There's one coming via Silverlight 2.0 however, and there are a couple of free ones (one being free even for commercial use).

    If you use MDI, note that there is no built in support for it in WPF. Previously I would have suggested looking at the Navigation support in WPF, but I'm growing somewhat disillusioned with its limits and will probably roll my own UserControl swapping MDI-like implementation like everyone else does for my next project (if I ever actually start working on it). I looked at the Composite Application Guidance (Prism) but it felt like overkill, even though you can pick and choose what you use from it.

    If you need a reports engine, there is only one WPF native one I'm aware of: Radius90 from 90 Degree Software. But it seems like they've gone underground or something. There's no way to even buy it on their site. WPF does have great document support. Maybe one could roll your own depending on your needs.

    But, if you already have a working WinForms app, why rewrite? Unless it's an unmitigated disaster of an app or something I'd just stick with that (My project would be a rewrite of an old DOS app so I think I can be excused Smiley.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    DCMonkey said:
    If you need a data entry grid note that there isn't one included yet. There's one coming via Silverlight 2.0 however, and there are a couple of free ones (one being free even for commercial use).

    If you use MDI, note that there is no built in support for it in WPF. Previously I would have suggested looking at the Navigation support in WPF, but I'm growing somewhat disillusioned with its limits and will probably roll my own UserControl swapping MDI-like implementation like everyone else does for my next project (if I ever actually start working on it). I looked at the Composite Application Guidance (Prism) but it felt like overkill, even though you can pick and choose what you use from it.

    If you need a reports engine, there is only one WPF native one I'm aware of: Radius90 from 90 Degree Software. But it seems like they've gone underground or something. There's no way to even buy it on their site. WPF does have great document support. Maybe one could roll your own depending on your needs.

    But, if you already have a working WinForms app, why rewrite? Unless it's an unmitigated disaster of an app or something I'd just stick with that (My project would be a rewrite of an old DOS app so I think I can be excused Smiley.
    Well, I just thought I would learn WPF in the process. I'll do the rewrite on my own time. The app has no complicated stuff, just basic comboboxes, textboxes and a tabcontrol.

  • User profile image
    jamie

    jamie said:
    brian.shapiro said:
    *snip*
    too different.  ui wise.

    corel invented the property bar remember (err the ribbon - 6 years ago)

    even if ms didnt want to buy all of corel - or any of it - they need to do a silverlight/wpf deal.

    hear that steve?  a deal!  phone calls and stuff! woo hooo!

    CorelDraw - WPF Certified partner,,,   or whatever   Seemless integration/export   etc
    ....and...


    wouldnt it be a good time to show some proprietary software love?

    buy a normal apps company?


    adobe bought macromedia  but ms never did move on corel


    sorry - to me... it makes 100% sence (for wpf, silverlight, and expression suite)

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    jamie said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    ....and...


    wouldnt it be a good time to show some proprietary software love?

    buy a normal apps company?


    adobe bought macromedia  but ms never did move on corel


    sorry - to me... it makes 100% sence (for wpf, silverlight, and expression suite)

    jamie, well recently  i stopped using adobe illustrator and started using expression design. it has some advantages, one of them is that its a whole lot easier to select the objects you want:) i wish expression didn't shrink the graphics whenever i copy something and paste it in illustrator or photoshop though

  • User profile image
    jamie

    brian.shapiro said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    jamie, well recently  i stopped using adobe illustrator and started using expression design. it has some advantages, one of them is that its a whole lot easier to select the objects you want:) i wish expression didn't shrink the graphics whenever i copy something and paste it in illustrator or photoshop though
    ..i wouldnt know.  me and a million other floating customers of corel...


    * windows begat - corel2 - begat - win3 - begat - win3.1 - begat - corel 3 - begat pc fonts and clipart! - begat .....
    4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 floating



    <encore> never under-estimate Fractal Painter's possibilities</encore>

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    jamie said:
    brian.shapiro said:
    *snip*
    ..i wouldnt know.  me and a million other floating customers of corel...


    * windows begat - corel2 - begat - win3 - begat - win3.1 - begat - corel 3 - begat pc fonts and clipart! - begat .....
    4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 floating



    <encore> never under-estimate Fractal Painter's possibilities</encore>
    jamie, looking back aren't most of what was included in coreldraw junky rip-offs of mediocre fonts?

  • User profile image
    jamie

    brian.shapiro said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    jamie, looking back aren't most of what was included in coreldraw junky rip-offs of mediocre fonts?
    junky rippoff - USABLE fonts x 500+   (now 2000+)

    they just have extra nodes...  you cant even see them



    edit:  is that not a c9 chair or what... yes found in garbage (nice neighbourhood)

    gold/orange - depends on how you roll the velvet.


    gotta love orange...

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    I might be alone in this, but from the little I've played around with WPF, it doesn't seem like it is really any better than WinForms for standard business apps, at least at this stage.  For home/consumer apps it is definitely the way to go, since adding in all of the flashy animations and neato effects that home users seem to enjoy (see Apple) is extremely easy.

    As far as if it will be replaced soon, I highly doubt it.  MS has touted WPF as the replacement for WinForms.  They would have to be idiots to bring something else out before WPF really takes hold.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    The one problem with WPF is that it's just too slow. Even in the allegedly faster WPF 3.5 SP1 you can't have a large number of items in a listbox, combobox or treeview. I made a simple file treeview as a test, and what lightning fast in WinForms is unusably slow with WPF, and that's on a Core2Duo E8500 and a Radeon HD3850.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    Sven Groot said:

    The one problem with WPF is that it's just too slow. Even in the allegedly faster WPF 3.5 SP1 you can't have a large number of items in a listbox, combobox or treeview. I made a simple file treeview as a test, and what lightning fast in WinForms is unusably slow with WPF, and that's on a Core2Duo E8500 and a Radeon HD3850.

    I personally has no problem with WPF. Check out www.jmcphotogallery.net for actual result. My program runs fairly smoothly. I myself tested it with incredible amount of images loaded at same time.

    Good thing about WPF is that it is so easy to change my layout. There is no coding envolved. I mean no coding like panel.child = somehing;. It is extremely easy to understand my layout looking at XAML code.

    I haven't tried a drop list using tons of items. But I have seen many examples with drop list customized with many photos lined up in 3D space, and no slow down at all.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    jh71283

    Sven Groot said:

    The one problem with WPF is that it's just too slow. Even in the allegedly faster WPF 3.5 SP1 you can't have a large number of items in a listbox, combobox or treeview. I made a simple file treeview as a test, and what lightning fast in WinForms is unusably slow with WPF, and that's on a Core2Duo E8500 and a Radeon HD3850.

    Bea Costa did a 3-part series on improving Treeview performance in WPF...

    Link Here

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    jh71283 said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*
    Bea Costa did a 3-part series on improving Treeview performance in WPF...

    Link Here
    I'm sure Sven is well aware of the problem with the treeview. Sven is talking about any list item in WPF. With a listview what you get in effect is the ability to have a list that is essentially a user control. So if you have 1000 items in that list, that is akin to loading 1000 user controls. No amount of virtualisation is going to get rid of the performance hit.

    As a developer you just have to think a little more cleverly. I think experience of MFC/Winforms is invaluable in evaluating things like performance because there is an inherant obsession with it (performance)

    Developers need to realise that they are not going to get all the goodness that WPF offers without paying some sort of a price. The best computer games are graphics intense, and PCWorld or whoever sell high end machines geared toward this. The same thing must be true for WPF, in that if you want the high quality graphics, you pay for it in performance so have to compensate with better hardware. That said, Sven has a very quick machine and more work needs to be done on the platform.

    I personally would do a test. Turrican create a WPF Window, add a combobox and populate it will data from the service. Do the same with a Windows Form. Gauge the performance and decide there. If your service layer is engineered well it shouldn't matter if the presentation layer is Winforms or WPF.

    Personally I think this is a small enough application to take a gamble on WPF because if it is slow, it's not too difficult to spend a couple of days changing to Winforms. It all depends on your data access layer.

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