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Do you find WPF to be unnatural / unlogical?

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  • User profile image
    Ion Todirel

    , Bass wrote

    If WPF is so great, where are all the killer WPF apps?

    Hasn't it been something like 5 years already since WPF was first released?

    Visual Studio 2010?

  • User profile image
    PerfectPhase
  • User profile image
    Bass

    , vesuvius wrote

    @Bass:If I wanted to earn significantly less that I do at the moment, I would be a web developer. Highly skilled web devs are valuable, but they are ten-a-penny

    Just my two pence

    The software I write professionally is middleware. It has no GUI at all.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    , PerfectPhase wrote

    *snip*

    I find this quite intresing, jump to 32minutes in: http://www.thoughtworks.com/tech-radar-qtb-uk

    They're talking about the concept of Java end of life, not the java platform, just the language and the rise of other languages like Clojure and Scala that run on the JVM.  

    Clojure and Scala are much better languages than Java. But everyone I know professionally uses Java. Java is "good enough" and there is already a huge market of talent around it.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    Not to beat a dead horse but here's another example of the overly complex, academic nature of WPF. Tooltips shouldn't be this hard.

    Marco Zhou: The real problem here is that ToolTip alongside with ContextMenu will be treated as random properties for FrameworkElements, so ToolTip and ConextMenu will not be part of the element tree (either logical tree or visual tree), from my personal understanding, this could get some of the performance benefits, since when you shows a ToolTip or ContextMenu, you don't need to add them into the main element tree, and remove them when they are hidden. (note that big structure change within visual tree doesn't come for free).

    But the problem with this is that ElementName binding which replies on traversal of the logical tree to find the correct name scope to resolve the name of the element will fails, because any content within ToolTip and ContextMenu resides in their own element tree which is different from the main element tree.

    Fortunately, PlacementTarget is a good property to help us bridge between main element tree and the element tree presented by ToolTips and ContextMenus.

    I have to say that all those implementation details should be hidden from developers, and it would be better if WPF could come up with a method to hide such details, and make data binding work as it is with other typical scenario.

    Hopefully, future version of WPF could address this in a profound way.

    Hope this clears things up a little bit.

    WPF is a great framework. I really like how components can be built, reused, and how sometimes they just snap together and magically provide their function. Unfortunately WPF is also full of obscure implmentation details that could only be loved by the more academicly inclined while sipping thier tripple decaf soy lattes...

     

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    Not to beat a dead horse but here's another example of the overly complex, academic nature of WPF. Tooltips shouldn't be this hard.

    *snip*

    WPF is a great framework. I really like how components can be built, reused, and how sometimes they just snap together and magically provide their function. Unfortunately WPF is also full of obscure implmentation details that could only be loved by the more academicly inclined while sipping thier tripple decaf soy lattes...

     

    I agree, some things you come across make you scratch your head. But for the most part, WPF is great, and I prefer it over WinForms.

  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    @DeathByVisualStudio:

    Why are you dragging academia into this? WPF is a commercial framework developed by a mass-market commercial software provider. Whatever its strengths and weaknesses, academics aren't to blame.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @contextfree`:

    I didn't drag academics into WPF. The designers of WPF did. Whenever you ask for an explanation of why things are the way they are (i.e. so difficult) the excuse is usally some obtuse academic explanation that fails to solve the practical problem. I'd be happy with the explaination of "Oh, we screwed up. Sorry. We'll fix it in the next release." but is seems like issues like this get marked in Connect as "Won't Fix - by design".

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    @DeathByVisualStudio:

    The more you need software to do things for you, the harder it gets. I struggle with DependencyProperties because I find the syntax illogical, but I also struggle to owner draw Winforms controls, never mind fixing the same code several times in HTML/CSS for various web browsers.

    The way you feel about WPF is the way I feel about Devexpress WPF controls at present. If you think Microsft have made a mess of WPF, think again. These guys are doing their best at enforcing hair loss. I am starting to look like my avatar

    Mistakes have been made in WPF, just the same as pretty much every other framework out there. sometimes you just have to accept things for what they are (by design) or move on and use MFC or something without a technical debt.

    Send me a postcard when you find it please...

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @vesuviussometimes I think we are just being greedy. My first weird experience is the video demo. It was cool doing video is easy. Than I do 20 of them it breaks. I thought it was a bug until I realize doing 20 videos was never a good thing to begin with.

    This happens to a lot early wpf devs. The starts to throw in tons of stuff in the logic tree, they forgot there is always a cost to it. And they blame ms for it.

    One example is notepad. I think most of us would not make a performing text editor . I recall it is really difficult from community feedback. But vs2010 seem to do it fine, my beloved dpi fix yessss.

    I also think we lack in depth knowledge of it. Like adding element in the tree should be done in batch. A lot of us doing per item basis, which makes too much redundant  recalculations.

    It is not that easy because we often need to get hands dirty if we want to do more. But some people think that wpf fault. I think it is unfair. Because wpf was never Kent to solve everything. Some people  just don't see that.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , vesuvius wrote
     The way you feel about WPF is the way I feel about Devexpress WPF controls at present. If you think Microsft have made a mess of WPF, think again. These guys are doing their best at enforcing hair loss. I am starting to look live my avatar

    I've been bald for years.... Wink

    Actually if I had to pick some aspect of life under Visual Studio that was the ultimate baldness enducing nightmare it would be VSTSDB -- now that is one quality product chalked full of academic explanations of why its sucks so bad... Suffice it to say when you hear a conconphony of cussing coming out of the bosses' office you know he's using VSTSDB...but then again that's a whole other story...

     

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    I have seen grown men on the verge of crying when dealing with TFS issues, so much so that most people get to a stage of functionality with it and it is never touched again.

    TFS is definitley something developers are superstitious about. You get very little thanks for configuing it right, but boy do you look inept when you cannot get it to work and everyone is twiddling their thumbs, and you manager knows he has to explain lost productivity.

    Your complaint about WPF is a valid one, but can be applied across many technologies, from SVN to Eclipse (your pseudonym included). This is why experienced developers/engineers are so valuable. I love winforms, but WPF makes better aplications, especially the one I am working on at present....there is no comparison!

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @vesuvius:

    Care to show a screenshot of it? Remove all text ofc, don't want information leak. Only layout is good enough. Smiley Mine is called jmcphotogallery. You can find it in download.com. It is pretty bad in my standard and I haven't update it for a long time now, but, it is a good learning project.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    @magicalclick:I am not allowed. It does not even have a name but a codename

    We will be going against competitors, but things are going very well.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    I see. Once it is released and ok for publications, please remember to post it Smiley

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @vesuvius:

    Actually I was talking about what some refer to as "DataDude" -- the DB portion of Visual Studio. But yes TFS is also quite the time suck. It just further illustrates my point -- Microsoft used to be the company the provided point-click-and-ship tools. Today, like everyone else, they are overly complex and more importantly provide no better return on development dollar spent. It's my opinion that Microsoft has allowed an inbalance between the practical and the academic.  Now where's my tin foil hat...

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Today, like everyone else, they are overly complex and more importantly provide no better return on development dollar spent. It's my opinion that Microsoft has allowed an inbalance between the practical and the academic.  Now where's my tin foil hat...

    After I finish in academia, I'm planning on spending a few months of my newfound freedom to create a 100% VB6-compatible language add-in for Visual Studio.

    ....then sell it back to Microsoft Smiley

    The funny thing is, unless you use Declare Lib to do funny stuff with Win32, it should be possible to use WPF as a UI layer for VB6.

  • User profile image
    joechung

    This is what happens when "bright people who enjoy solving puzzles" design software. They make puzzles they would enjoy solving out of their software.

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