Coffeehouse Thread

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Revolting MVPs

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  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Robert has a link to this post from his blog.

    Basically lots of MVPs want Microsoft to take up development of VB6 again.  I can sort of see what they are saying, but why go backwards?

    I'll refrain from making the obvious 'peasants are revolting' joke (this may be a British joke thing, so please don't imply anything from this if you don't know what I am talking about).

    Thoughts? Do you think Classic VB would be useful? Or do you think Microsoft should push forward and not spend all of its time looking back?

    Edit: Quick thought? Why not open source VB and let people write their own IDE for it?

  • User profile image
    littleguru

    I think VB6 should stay were it is right now. Look at it: it doesn't even support Multithreading, nor does it really OOP.

    I'm so happy with C#. You can't immagine.

  • User profile image
    Dr. Shim

    littleguru wrote:
    I think VB6 should stay were it is right now.
    ...
    I'm so happy with C#. You can't immagine.


    Agreed and agreed.

  • User profile image
    Tensor

    First, love the new logo. I hope that banana has the correct curve. Wink

    Second...  I have been a VB programmer for somthing like 8 years in a row now - through vba in access 2 & 97, vb 3, 4, 6 (skipped 5 for some reason), and now vb.net. This would seem to put me right in the constituency these MVPs are claiming to represent. And they are, in my case, dead wrong.

    I find VB.NET much much more productive, with the slight exception of no edit-and-continue, which will soon be fixed. Actually I think if MS dropped the ball with vb.net 1.0, it was not doing E&C. A lot of these people wouldnt be shouting if they had had E&C.
    So, I woukdd much rather see the VB team use its resources to push forward.

    Shared sourcing (lets face it, infinitely more likely than truely open sourcing) vb 6 has a good ring to it, though.

  • User profile image
    gswitz

    I signed the petition b/c I want M$ to continue supporting and patching VB6, not b/c I want to develop with it.

    Most of us are just linking our old VB6 com objects into our .Net apps. If support for VB6 (and patches) are stopped then it's as if I'm being forced to convert all this code. There's tons and tons of it. The upgrade tool works some, but not effortlessly.

    I'm thankful for all that I have. I'm trying to move away from VB6, but code life is always longer than we expect, and keeping production code working it my top priority.

    Thanks for listening, M$.

    Geoff

  • User profile image
    Manip

    Rossj wrote:
    Thoughts? Do you think Classic VB would be useful? Or do you think Microsoft should push forward and not spend all of its time looking back?

    Edit: Quick thought? Why not open source VB and let people write their own IDE for it?


    VB6 is the only true BASIC. VB.net is not BASIc and
    it's not Visual BASIC either. 

    Advantages of VB6 (over .Net) 
    - Runs without 25Mb .Net framework (2Mb runtime, build in XP)
    - Uses true BASIC syntax (function/sub call lib, not class lib)  
    - Cleaner access to ActiveX controls
    - Best IDE to date
    - Easier to read
    - VB 5 compatible

    VB .Net still can't do multi-line comments for crying
    out loud, it is a frigging joke produced by someone
    that clearly isn't a VB fan.

    Re: Rossj - Open source VB? What does that have to do
    with a custom IDE?

    An OpenSource VB wouldn't survive because most of the VB fans know VB and as the compiler is written in C++ .. Who would develop it?

  • User profile image
    sbc

    Maybe if it was open sourced, put it on SourceForge (using the CPL, which has been used for the other open source Microsoft apps). As .NET has superseded it, the community can only benefit from this.

    Also if it were open source and free, more may want to develop applications.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    Manip wrote:
    Re: Rossj - Open source VB? What does that have to do
    with a custom IDE?


    I doubt Microsoft would ever open source VS, but the language might be a different issue?

    Who'd develop/support VB? Anyone who wanted to make some money supporting something people still want.

  • User profile image
    Zed

    It makes more sense to me to ease the upgrade path from VB6 to VB.Net rather than to restart development of (Classic) VB.  I don't think anyone believes VB6 was a better language, or that the technology itself was superior to the .Net framework.  If there was a more reliable upgrade path that required far fewer man-hours to migrate those existing products then this would be a non-issue.

  • User profile image
    RandyRants

    From my point of view, MS supported the language for over 30 years. 

    Now that they've opted to go in a more modern direction the MVP's are upset... I can see that as viable and it has merit.  Does the new language break the old?  Sort of - no one is stopping them from continuing to use VS6 which is robust platform - and well tested by now! 

    Is there a conversion tool available?  If not from MS, then there's bound to be other companies making conversion tools... which means this is a boon to the ISV/Dev market.  It opens up a new field for a short-medium term business.

    And the fact that VB.NET looks so very much like VB6 means that existing VB'ers can pick up the new platform pretty easily.  I know they can, because I have.  And I've used VB on and off from way back in the VB3 days...

    Personally I've never understood this die hard tie to VB. Think about it this way: companies have billions of lines of COBOL code and I can almost promise you that their compiler/environment plateaued in updates years ago... yet they still have active maintenance going on in their code.  The whole argument of the MVP is questionable, in this light.

    Personally, I could take or leave VB.  I started out as a C fan.  I used C when my employer allowed it, but when C++ (with or without MFC) or VB was required, I picked them up.  Now I code in C#, C++, C, Java (AWT, J2ME, J#), VB.NET, and VB. 

    Which asks the question of what makes for a better technologist?  The one that is bitterly crying for VB6 because "that's what they know" or the one that is willing to learn new languages to adapt to new and more powerful platforms?  *shrug*

    All of this does make me wonder if there will be a bunch of openings for new MVP's coming soon!

  • User profile image
    Tom Servo

    I mean... VB for christs sake.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    RandyRants wrote:
    Now that they've opted to go in a more modern direction the MVP's are upset... I can see that as viable and it has merit. 


    Actually I think the customers are upset and the MVPs are voicing the concerns on their behalf. At least that is how it appears.

    Randy I am a little worried that you appear to have absolutely no concern for customers who have thousands and thousands of lines of VB who don't particularly want to re-write it all because they are worried they will be unable to re-compile it on an unsupported IDE at some time in the future.  I think that is a fair stance for them to take. Just saying they should upgrade to VB.Net is not really resolving their concerns.

  • User profile image
    RandyRants

    Rossj wrote:

    I am getting a little concerned with the number of people around this thread who appear to have absolutely no concern for customers who have thousands and thousands of lines of VB who don't particularly want to re-write it all because they are worried they will be unable to re-compile it on an unsupported IDE at some time in the future.


    Oh I can empathize with that.  Make no mistake on that!  But I look at the numbers and history of computing.  No language lasts forever and there's been 30+ years of support of BASIC... look at companies that have thousands of lines of code for DEC machines or COBOL or Fortran and the like - you can't tell me that they have actively updated compilers or haven't had to consider re-writing their apps for newer technology... even Java: their original AWT is pretty much useless now a days and would have had to have been re-written.

    It's computer code and that's an asset that ages poorly.  Always has and in my opinion, it always will.  It will always need maintenance and upgrading and porting...

    ...like I've been saying: no one is stopping VS6 from running on XP or 2003 or even support at this point.  Hell, my MCSD from version 6 is still a valid certificate at this point.

  • User profile image
    Rossj

    RandyRants wrote:
    you can't tell me that they have actively updated compilers or haven't had to consider re-writing their apps for newer technology...


    The thing is (I say that too much - must stop) re-writing costs time and money, and some of the thousands of lines of VB we are talking about were written in the last 5 years. And I don't think old programming languages die, they just go out of favour.  Check out some of the languages in the last 30 on Tiobe.  Its even got Prolog for cupertino*'s sake. Smiley



    * s/cupertino/heaven/

  • User profile image
    Tensor

    How many VB MVPs are there in total I wonder?

    Anyway - the COBOL guys profited when y2k came around - my turn! All you Vb6 houses out there who want to refactor to vb.net just give me huge amount of money and I'll consult for you Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Microsoft needs to re-invent VB6 as "VB7-NotDotNet" that compiles to native, rather than MSIL.

    I used to love VB because I could RAD something I needed quickly, and pass it around for comments. Now I can't do that anymore.

    ....And Microsoft wonders why Delphi's popularity has soared since the release of DotNet, hmmmmm

    Delphi is still teh whinnar for RAD!

  • User profile image
    geekling

    W3bbo wrote:
    Microsoft needs to re-invent VB6 as "VB7-NotDotNet" that compiles to native, rather than MSIL.

    I used to love VB because I could RAD something I needed quickly, and pass it around for comments. Now I can't do that anymore.

    ....And Microsoft wonders why Delphi's popularity has soared since the release of DotNet, hmmmmm

    Delphi is still teh whinnar for RAD!


    Wow. Would that not make Visual Basic a second class citizen -- *again*?

  • User profile image
    Cider

    Rossj wrote:
    . And I don't think old programming languages die, they just go out of favour.  Check out some of the languages in the last 30 on Tiobe


    I love the statistics on that site.  Its a real publish-and-be-damned usage of statistics, when there are some that are so stupid, it makes the whole thing a joke.

    The site says, "The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled engineers, courses and third party vendors".

    Are there really as many skilled engineers out there making pretty patterns that look like snowflakes in Logo, as people using vbscript and bourne shell, combined?

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