Coffeehouse Thread

32 posts

Whatever happened to Jpeg XR (HD Photo)?

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    intelman

    I notice paint in Windows 7 does not support Jpeg XR. I have not really seen much support anywhere. Mainly flickr, Windows Live Photo's, Picasa....

    Is this format left to die?

  • User profile image
    Dodo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Photo

    Wikipedia said:
    JPEG supports bit depths of 8 and 12 bits; HD Photo supports bit depths of up to 32 bits.
    I have 24bit JPEGs, is there anything wrong with them then?
    Wikipedia said:
    While JPEG uses 8 × 8 blocks for its frequency transformation, HD Photo uses 4 × 4 blocks. 2 × 4 and 2 × 2 transformations are also defined for special cases.
    Wikipedia said:
    In JPEG, the image DC components from the DCT are encoded by left-prediction. In HD Photo, blocks are grouped into macroblocks of 16 × 16 pixels
    So, that means, compression is worse, because the pixel blocks are smaller?
    Well, I would say, the format is doomed. If I'd want to share photos I'd either use JPEG or PNG. If I need high quality I'd use RAW image formats, Bitmaps or PSDs and use a lossless compression like RAR before passing it along.

  • User profile image
    intelman

    Dodo said:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Photo
    Wikipedia said:
    *snip*
    So, that means, compression is worse, because the pixel blocks are smaller?
    Well, I would say, the format is doomed. If I'd want to share photos I'd either use JPEG or PNG. If I need high quality I'd use RAW image formats, Bitmaps or PSDs and use a lossless compression like RAR before passing it along.
    Problem is raw formats require additional codecs. No service supports those either. Plus, there are no 64bit codecs for programs like 64bit lightroom.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Photo

    The DCT, the frequency transformation used by JPEG, is slightly lossy because of roundoff error. HD Photo uses a transformation called the Photo Core Transform (PCT), a type of Hadamard transform, which resembles a 4 × 4 DCT but is lossless.

    I like Jpeg XR for compressing large lossless images. I have had similar results with saving an image as a jpeg with photoshop, but that was on a trial basis, so I am stuck with free tools.

  • User profile image
    Dodo

    intelman said:
    Dodo said:
    *snip*
    Problem is raw formats require additional codecs. No service supports those either. Plus, there are no 64bit codecs for programs like 64bit lightroom.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Photo

    The DCT, the frequency transformation used by JPEG, is slightly lossy because of roundoff error. HD Photo uses a transformation called the Photo Core Transform (PCT), a type of Hadamard transform, which resembles a 4 × 4 DCT but is lossless.

    I like Jpeg XR for compressing large lossless images. I have had similar results with saving an image as a jpeg with photoshop, but that was on a trial basis, so I am stuck with free tools.
    Well, the lossy compression of JPEGs is their advantage. As said, they're good for sharing photos with friends because the file size can be very small without an impact on visible quality. For high quality images, I prefer them uncompressed and I think Adobe's special bitmap containers support up to 64bit uncompressed lossless bitmaps. Paint won't be able to open those, even though they're bitmaps, but I'd not really see a reason why I would really need a compressed format. It's not quite suited for the application of high resolution raw quality images anyway. High quality images are usually used where detail matters, and not storage capacity.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    That's indeed odd that MS has no strong support to the format. Anyway, Paint is garbage, MS knows that as well. Paint .Net is supposed to replace Paint. Get Paint .Net instead. Also it supports HD Photo format with plug-in I think.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    intelman

    magicalclick said:
    That's indeed odd that MS has no strong support to the format. Anyway, Paint is garbage, MS knows that as well. Paint .Net is supposed to replace Paint. Get Paint .Net instead. Also it supports HD Photo format with plug-in I think.
    Paint.NET is nice.  It is when sending a jpeg xr photo to someone else is when things get confusing. "How do I open this?" This happens for a few other images, I've had Jpeg 2000 fail for some people.

  • User profile image
    Dodo

    magicalclick said:
    That's indeed odd that MS has no strong support to the format. Anyway, Paint is garbage, MS knows that as well. Paint .Net is supposed to replace Paint. Get Paint .Net instead. Also it supports HD Photo format with plug-in I think.
    You haven't played with Windows 7 very much, have you? Smiley

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    Dodo said:
    magicalclick said:
    *snip*
    You haven't played with Windows 7 very much, have you? Smiley
    I am not sure what you mean. I am runing Win7 Beta.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    intelman said:
    magicalclick said:
    *snip*
    Paint.NET is nice.  It is when sending a jpeg xr photo to someone else is when things get confusing. "How do I open this?" This happens for a few other images, I've had Jpeg 2000 fail for some people.
    That's more important for sure. Win7 explore should be updated. Also WL Photo Gellery should support it as well.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    Cannot​Resolve​Symbol

    magicalclick said:
    intelman said:
    *snip*
    That's more important for sure. Win7 explore should be updated. Also WL Photo Gellery should support it as well.
    WL Photo Gallery is one of the few applications that does support HD Photo (aka JPEG XR).

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    CannotResolveSymbol said:
    magicalclick said:
    *snip*
    WL Photo Gallery is one of the few applications that does support HD Photo (aka JPEG XR).
    LOL really? I have it, but I have never tried it. I guess that's fine than, just tell people to install XL Essentials.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    exoteric

    Supposed to replace Paint? I suppose a lot of things are supposed to replace a lot of things, like Notepad+ is "supposed" to replace Notepad.


    I remember waiting forever for JPEG 2000. Now we have JPEG XR. Is that even fully standardized yet?

    But even so, unless it's in Paint, it doesn't exist. Okay, if it's in Internet Explorer it does heh

  • User profile image
    dschonbe

    Hi.  I’m Dan Schonberg, and I work on JPEG XR / HD Photo at Microsoft.

    JPEG XR is still in the standardization process.  Although the standard is nearly complete, since the standardization process is still ongoing Windows 7 does not yet “label” the format JPEG XR.  If you are interested, you can follow the progress via the JPEG website (http://www.jpeg.org).

    On the other hand, HD Photo is fully supported in Windows 7.  It is used in a variety of locations throughout Windows 7.  If you would like to create your own HD Photo files, the easiest ways are through use of Windows Live Photo Gallery (http://download.live.com/photogallery) or the WIC Explorer (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=A6D6EC6A-E4F2-405E-842D-7C3BCB5B1390&displaylang=en).

    In regard to some of the comments about compression capability:

    In addition to supporting lossless compression, JPEG XR / HD Photo actually has better compression than JPEG for lossy compression.  The 4x4 transform is applied hierarchically, which makes it effectively 16x16, or even larger when using the overlapping feature at the transform block boundaries.  This allows the transform to avoid many of the pitfalls of block based transforms.  The design also supports high dynamic range image handling, with extended bit depths and even floating point and pseudo-floating point pixel representations.

    One final note. With the final standardization of the format just around the corner, more news will be emerging soon.

    Thanks!

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    dschonbe said:

    Hi.  I’m Dan Schonberg, and I work on JPEG XR / HD Photo at Microsoft.

    JPEG XR is still in the standardization process.  Although the standard is nearly complete, since the standardization process is still ongoing Windows 7 does not yet “label” the format JPEG XR.  If you are interested, you can follow the progress via the JPEG website (http://www.jpeg.org).

    On the other hand, HD Photo is fully supported in Windows 7.  It is used in a variety of locations throughout Windows 7.  If you would like to create your own HD Photo files, the easiest ways are through use of Windows Live Photo Gallery (http://download.live.com/photogallery) or the WIC Explorer (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=A6D6EC6A-E4F2-405E-842D-7C3BCB5B1390&displaylang=en).

    In regard to some of the comments about compression capability:

    In addition to supporting lossless compression, JPEG XR / HD Photo actually has better compression than JPEG for lossy compression.  The 4x4 transform is applied hierarchically, which makes it effectively 16x16, or even larger when using the overlapping feature at the transform block boundaries.  This allows the transform to avoid many of the pitfalls of block based transforms.  The design also supports high dynamic range image handling, with extended bit depths and even floating point and pseudo-floating point pixel representations.

    One final note. With the final standardization of the format just around the corner, more news will be emerging soon.

    Thanks!

    Wow, that's nice to hear. Just my thought, Why not make it .jpg2? I just think JPEG XR and HD Photo doesn't click for me. .hdp may be ok for me. Somehow .hdp makes my eyes hurt with all the lines up and down.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    fowl

    I think .jpgx sounds cooler. =)

  • User profile image
    intelman

    Wow revived thread. Still relevant today. See no mainstream adoption. Will the VP8 image format from Google take off quicker? Different targets, but still, it will be interesting to see if anything can remotely compete with jpeg.

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    @magicalclick: jpg2 - ever heard of JPEG 2000?

    @intelman: As long as we get something better than the current JPEG.

     

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    Why don't people just switch to PNG (or another lossless compression)?

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.