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Project Natal + Windows

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  • User profile image
    aL_

    ok first off, there needs to be a channel 9 video on natal Smiley

    But also, id like to start a petition to get windows drivers for this thing.. i dont own a xbox 360 but i'd buy the natal in a heartbeat if i could program against it Smiley and i know im not alone..

    yes i know the natal is not even beta yet, but the sooner we make our voices heard the better Smiley

     

    --edit--

    in case you havent heard, billy G himself reckons natal is heading to windows Big Smile

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10286309-56.html

  • User profile image
    Minh

    I wonder if this will be possible...

    I mean, MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it. And the licensing fees usually depend on how widely the gadget is used...

    If MS paid $X to have it on the Xbox, then MS would have to pay $X + $Y to also have it be used on Windows...

    This is different than the Xbox joypad controller that MS made available on the PC also because the joypad is as commoditized as it gets -- even though they did have to shell out some more dough for rumble...

    We'll just have to see I guess... Although if you see games on XBLA using Natal, then it will probably mean it'll be available for XNA... which will probably mean it'll be available on the PC

    Unless some genius crack the protocol. Is Brian Peek already on it? haha

  • User profile image
    aL_

    Minh said:

    I wonder if this will be possible...

    I mean, MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it. And the licensing fees usually depend on how widely the gadget is used...

    If MS paid $X to have it on the Xbox, then MS would have to pay $X + $Y to also have it be used on Windows...

    This is different than the Xbox joypad controller that MS made available on the PC also because the joypad is as commoditized as it gets -- even though they did have to shell out some more dough for rumble...

    We'll just have to see I guess... Although if you see games on XBLA using Natal, then it will probably mean it'll be available for XNA... which will probably mean it'll be available on the PC

    Unless some genius crack the protocol. Is Brian Peek already on it? haha

    as far as i understand ms bought the company [3DV] that built the 3d camera so that should be fine.. in any case id still have to buy a retail natal [producing royalties for whoever], its not like they know i dont have an xbox Smiley

    but still i see how that could be a problem.. i hope it isnt though Tongue Out

    i hear the software is the really tough bit in the natal, taking the point cloud and extracting a trackable skeleton from it seems like heavy stuff.. check out this blog post from the awsome johnny lee: http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

    --edit--

    the natal wikipedia page is coming along nicely
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natal_(Video_Game_controller) [the last parenthasies doesnt get included when you click the link for some reason]
    those TOF cameras are pretty impressive Perplexed i wonder if the tracking calculations are done on the natal it self or on the host.. [host seems likely though]

     

  • User profile image
    aL_

    aL_ said:
    Minh said:
    *snip*

    as far as i understand ms bought the company [3DV] that built the 3d camera so that should be fine.. in any case id still have to buy a retail natal [producing royalties for whoever], its not like they know i dont have an xbox Smiley

    but still i see how that could be a problem.. i hope it isnt though Tongue Out

    i hear the software is the really tough bit in the natal, taking the point cloud and extracting a trackable skeleton from it seems like heavy stuff.. check out this blog post from the awsome johnny lee: http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

    --edit--

    the natal wikipedia page is coming along nicely
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natal_(Video_Game_controller) [the last parenthasies doesnt get included when you click the link for some reason]
    those TOF cameras are pretty impressive Perplexed i wonder if the tracking calculations are done on the natal it self or on the host.. [host seems likely though]

     

    according to this article:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2009296568_e3_new_info_on_microsofts_nata.html

    a PC version/compability of natal doesnt seem entierly out of the question! Big Smile

    Q: You've apparently drawn on the gesture recognition work that led to Microsoft's Surface computer.

    A: I think it's very smart for people to look at Natal and think about natural user input and how it applies in front of your TV, how it might apply sitting in front of a laptop or sitting in front of a PC.

  • User profile image
    Bas

    MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it.

    ms bought the company [3DV] that built the 3d camera

    As far as I know, 3DV didn't build Natal, and Microsoft didn't license it. It was built by Microsoft, and they bought 3DV to prevent others from licensing similar technology. See here. Even if the hardware is designed by 3DV, they didn't license the technology, they bought it. (3DV sold all their assets to Microsoft after all.) So using it on Windows shouldn't be a problem licensing-wise.

    I'd love to see some drivers for it. It should be able to solve the old 'I don't want to sit with my arms outstretched' problem people apparently have with touchscreens. And using it for media center would be awesome. Flip through your albums, make a hush-hush gesture to turn down or mute the volume, throw up the horns to play your death-metal playlist...

    Also, I'd want this to happen if only for the facial recognition. Sit down in front of your PC and hey, you're logged in. Sounds awesome. Smiley

  • User profile image
    aL_

    Bas said:

    *snip*

    As far as I know, 3DV didn't build Natal, and Microsoft didn't license it. It was built by Microsoft, and they bought 3DV to prevent others from licensing similar technology. See here. Even if the hardware is designed by 3DV, they didn't license the technology, they bought it. (3DV sold all their assets to Microsoft after all.) So using it on Windows shouldn't be a problem licensing-wise.

    I'd love to see some drivers for it. It should be able to solve the old 'I don't want to sit with my arms outstretched' problem people apparently have with touchscreens. And using it for media center would be awesome. Flip through your albums, make a hush-hush gesture to turn down or mute the volume, throw up the horns to play your death-metal playlist...

    Also, I'd want this to happen if only for the facial recognition. Sit down in front of your PC and hey, you're logged in. Sounds awesome. Smiley

    i think 3dv built the depth maera, they apparently had a some sort of 3d webcam lined up but then ms bought them (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZCam) in any case, i hope licensing wont be a problem

    the face recognition login would be really great, but also think of what you could do with the POV/head tracking.. you could make sure messages appear where the user is (or is not) looking [on a multimon system for example] you could "peek" outside the edge of your desktop by meaning to the opposite direction Smiley

    also, because you sit much closer to your pc than your tv, the depth resolution (in x/y) should be higher so maybe you can have it track your hands and fingers.. if thats possible, imagine the a 3d modeling app where you actually use your hands to manipulate your model Scared just beeing able to do minority report type manipulation on the pc would be great Smiley

    maybe i shouldnt get to exited yet though Smiley the word is still out on accuracy and resoultion i suppose Smiley

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    aL_ said:
    Bas said:
    *snip*

    i think 3dv built the depth maera, they apparently had a some sort of 3d webcam lined up but then ms bought them (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZCam) in any case, i hope licensing wont be a problem

    the face recognition login would be really great, but also think of what you could do with the POV/head tracking.. you could make sure messages appear where the user is (or is not) looking [on a multimon system for example] you could "peek" outside the edge of your desktop by meaning to the opposite direction Smiley

    also, because you sit much closer to your pc than your tv, the depth resolution (in x/y) should be higher so maybe you can have it track your hands and fingers.. if thats possible, imagine the a 3d modeling app where you actually use your hands to manipulate your model Scared just beeing able to do minority report type manipulation on the pc would be great Smiley

    maybe i shouldnt get to exited yet though Smiley the word is still out on accuracy and resoultion i suppose Smiley

    I can imagine a *LOT* of uses for this tech for a pc....

    for example a disabled person who may have very limited use of arms and legs able to use one hand and or the face to control stuff at home... could be great for that kind of thing.

    and yes i can see using it for media center and for pc games....

    Dare I say this?   World Of Warcraft on a giant screen with this controller ???  I think that would be cool for WOW fans! Smiley

  • User profile image
    Bass

    Even if Microsoft doesn't write drivers for this thing, someone will. The problem is how much of the machine vision algorithms are done on the ASIC and how much is done in the driver.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    figuerres said:
    aL_ said:
    *snip*

    I can imagine a *LOT* of uses for this tech for a pc....

    for example a disabled person who may have very limited use of arms and legs able to use one hand and or the face to control stuff at home... could be great for that kind of thing.

    and yes i can see using it for media center and for pc games....

    Dare I say this?   World Of Warcraft on a giant screen with this controller ???  I think that would be cool for WOW fans! Smiley

    WoW is repeptitve strain, people are always looking for ways to make stuff like grinding more efficent and automatic, not harder or more interactive. Smiley

  • User profile image
    Bass

    I just discovered that Natal is like, not coming out for a long time. Seriously what is it with Microsoft and annoncing things like years in advance? When Apple announces a product, it often comes out the next day.

  • User profile image
    aL_

    Bass said:

    I just discovered that Natal is like, not coming out for a long time. Seriously what is it with Microsoft and annoncing things like years in advance? When Apple announces a product, it often comes out the next day.

    unless its not that far away Big Smile consider win7, first it was going to come out some time in 2010 but now they're  thinking october.. also, they have the dev kits so it cant be that far off.. but maybe in just wishing Tongue Out

    @disabilities

    thats also a great use  Smiley i wonder if it can also track the point where the user is watching.. it seems sorta likely based on the demos they've shown. devices like that are usually really expensive but the natal is a mass market product so it will be available for everyone Smiley
    please, mighty lords of channel9, talk to the natal team Smiley [and tape it Tongue Out ]

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Bass said:

    I just discovered that Natal is like, not coming out for a long time. Seriously what is it with Microsoft and annoncing things like years in advance? When Apple announces a product, it often comes out the next day.

    Natal is not a product. Snow Leopard was announced, what, two years ago?

  • User profile image
    aL_

    PaoloM said:
    Bass said:
    *snip*

    Natal is not a product. Snow Leopard was announced, what, two years ago?

    true but apple is the king of hype Wink also the products are pretty diffrent.. having devkits must mean the at least got a somewhat finished api..

    btw it seems natal is doing at least some processing internally [check out some of the info "dots" here], good for speed but possible bad programability.. i prefer speed in this case though. the speculation continues... Tongue Out

    --edit--
    the internal processor info is also on wikipedia.

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    Bass said:

    I just discovered that Natal is like, not coming out for a long time. Seriously what is it with Microsoft and annoncing things like years in advance? When Apple announces a product, it often comes out the next day.

    It's a platform though like, they're just saying "hey we made this cool stuff, sent out a bunch of dev kits, expect cool games in the future". I can't believe someone would complain about a company being open about their roadmap.  Apple being secretive isn't helping anything except Apple.

  • User profile image
    Bas

    aL_ said:
    PaoloM said:
    *snip*

    true but apple is the king of hype Wink also the products are pretty diffrent.. having devkits must mean the at least got a somewhat finished api..

    btw it seems natal is doing at least some processing internally [check out some of the info "dots" here], good for speed but possible bad programability.. i prefer speed in this case though. the speculation continues... Tongue Out

    --edit--
    the internal processor info is also on wikipedia.

    I'm guessing it's like the wiimote, which has an IR camera, but you have no way of getting the raw IR image. There's an onboard processor that analyses the image from the IR camera, does blob tracking and stuff like that, and then gives out an image with up to four dots. I'm guessing Natal has a similar processor that gives you the individual joints it sees and perhaps an ID for the face it recognizes (as well as a simple RGB image, see the video chat or the reflection in the water in the Milo demo), but not the actual raw grayscale depth-image.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    CreamFilling512 said:
    Bass said:
    *snip*

    It's a platform though like, they're just saying "hey we made this cool stuff, sent out a bunch of dev kits, expect cool games in the future". I can't believe someone would complain about a company being open about their roadmap.  Apple being secretive isn't helping anything except Apple.

    I'm sorry, but it's quite a rare occasion when I am actually excited about a Microsoft product. But wait, this isn't a product. Well at least it has a release date.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Minh said:

    I wonder if this will be possible...

    I mean, MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it. And the licensing fees usually depend on how widely the gadget is used...

    If MS paid $X to have it on the Xbox, then MS would have to pay $X + $Y to also have it be used on Windows...

    This is different than the Xbox joypad controller that MS made available on the PC also because the joypad is as commoditized as it gets -- even though they did have to shell out some more dough for rumble...

    We'll just have to see I guess... Although if you see games on XBLA using Natal, then it will probably mean it'll be available for XNA... which will probably mean it'll be available on the PC

    Unless some genius crack the protocol. Is Brian Peek already on it? haha

    Have you guys seen Sony's answer to the motion controller question?

    OK, first of all, augmented reality is cool...!!!

    Secondly, I think Sony's solution has a better chance of creating good games than Natal,  at least in the near-term... It's really like a WiiMote... with much greater pointing range... since w/ the WiiMote, the camera inside it must see the IR lights in the sensorbar.

    I think Natal is going to miss having a trigger... Unless all Natal games will be of the Wii Fit variety...

    I'm hoping what we're seeing in Natal isn't the final version

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Bas said:
    aL_ said:
    *snip*

    I'm guessing it's like the wiimote, which has an IR camera, but you have no way of getting the raw IR image. There's an onboard processor that analyses the image from the IR camera, does blob tracking and stuff like that, and then gives out an image with up to four dots. I'm guessing Natal has a similar processor that gives you the individual joints it sees and perhaps an ID for the face it recognizes (as well as a simple RGB image, see the video chat or the reflection in the water in the Milo demo), but not the actual raw grayscale depth-image.

    I'm guessing it's like the wiimote, which has an IR camera, but you have no way of getting the raw IR image

    I think you do have access to the image buffer... You saw the facial recognition demo... I guess the camera can always hash your face and send it to the Xbox... but I think MS has bigger plans for the camera than just as a motion controller.

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