Coffeehouse Thread

63 posts

Project Natal + Windows

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    aL_

    BitFlipper said:
    dentaku said:
    *snip*

    I think part of the problem is that we are so used to controllers that it is hard for us to imagine playing any other way.  Using a controller seems "natural" when in fact it is anything but natural.

    Personally I find it difficult to use a console controller to play FPS games. It feels like all my intended moves are funelled through a straw. A melee attack is reduced to a single button push. There are so many ways you can perform a melee attack, but all I get is to push a single button.  I used to play FPS games since before the original Doom even came out using a mouse and keyboard on a PC. To me that allows for much finer control. Mathematically, an analog stick results in the 1st derivative of where you are trying to aim, while a mouse is a 1:1 mapping of where you are trying to aim.  Even so, I have gotton somewhat used to using analog sticks to play FPS games.

    I think if Natal proves to be accurate enough, and they can reduce the lag to such an extent that it becomes a non-issue (which I believe they can as this is still far from final shipping hardware), that there is nothing preventing game developers from creating a whole new FPS control mechanism based on body motion that could end up being much less restrictive that a controller. And unlike some people's idea that you will need to "walk/run in place" to simulate walking/running, it can be something much simpler like leaning in the direction you want to move. I already gave an idea of a motion-only, full control scheme for an FPS while comfortably sitting down on your couch.

    The good news is that the developers are now getting the development kits. Let's hope they come up with some cool things that we just can't imagine right now since we are so brainwashed into thinking that these controllers are the "natural" or only way to do things.

    but then again alot of games include things that you just cant do in real life Smiley i cant jump 20 ft in the air for example, but in games i can, thats where the abstraction for the natal sort of breaks.. also when youre running around or turning in say a fps, the TV doesnt follow you around.. natal works best when youre relativly stationary or doing some fine grain maniuplations like aiming or something. but for course grained stuff like ducking or runngin around, i think a controller is needed.

    the human body is great but its also limited, our fingers are to fat to select a  single zergling out of a whole bunch, but a mouse is excelent for that Also in a fast paces fps you might want to switch weapons instantly, even if its more realisitc to reach for them.. the over shoulder reach is still cool though Smiley

    i see natal as more or a replacement/compilient for the mouse. consider old school fps:s where you used only the keyboard, then the mouse came around and revolutionized the quake scene but only in conjunction with the keyboard Smiley i think something similar will happen with natal, it will compliement another input device, but not replace it completly  Smiley

     

  • User profile image
    StalkeZERO

    Minh said:

    I wonder if this will be possible...

    I mean, MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it. And the licensing fees usually depend on how widely the gadget is used...

    If MS paid $X to have it on the Xbox, then MS would have to pay $X + $Y to also have it be used on Windows...

    This is different than the Xbox joypad controller that MS made available on the PC also because the joypad is as commoditized as it gets -- even though they did have to shell out some more dough for rumble...

    We'll just have to see I guess... Although if you see games on XBLA using Natal, then it will probably mean it'll be available for XNA... which will probably mean it'll be available on the PC

    Unless some genius crack the protocol. Is Brian Peek already on it? haha

    License it?   Microsoft OWNS it!! They bought the company that made the original natal.  They can do whatever they want with it.

    INCLUDING ADDING SUPPORT FOR IT TO WINDOWS 7!!!!!   If they do that, despite any of windows usual bugs I will gladly upgrade to windows 7.  To hell with snow leopard!!

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    StalkeZERO said:
    Minh said:
    *snip*

    License it?   Microsoft OWNS it!! They bought the company that made the original natal.  They can do whatever they want with it.

    INCLUDING ADDING SUPPORT FOR IT TO WINDOWS 7!!!!!   If they do that, despite any of windows usual bugs I will gladly upgrade to windows 7.  To hell with snow leopard!!

    INCLUDING ADDING SUPPORT FOR IT TO WINDOWS 7!!!!!

    Support for what? A product that "technically" does not exist?

    Windows 7 is pretty much done. If you are to ask for supporting some new technology, you should look at the next version.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    Minh said:

    I wonder if this will be possible...

    I mean, MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it. And the licensing fees usually depend on how widely the gadget is used...

    If MS paid $X to have it on the Xbox, then MS would have to pay $X + $Y to also have it be used on Windows...

    This is different than the Xbox joypad controller that MS made available on the PC also because the joypad is as commoditized as it gets -- even though they did have to shell out some more dough for rumble...

    We'll just have to see I guess... Although if you see games on XBLA using Natal, then it will probably mean it'll be available for XNA... which will probably mean it'll be available on the PC

    Unless some genius crack the protocol. Is Brian Peek already on it? haha

    BTW, they didn't "license", nor "buy" Natal.  They were working in-house on the software part of it for a very long time.  When it came close to having an actual product to demo and send out to developers, they needed to own the hardware as well. So they bought a company that developed a 3D camera and which also owned a lot of patents on it. Two birds with one stone.

    As was said many times by those that know what they are talking about, both the hardware and software used in Natal is pretty cutting edge stuff.  To say that they didn't invent anything because they bought the hardware is pretty close-minded.

    You may or may not have heard of Johnny Chung Lee:

    "Speaking as someone who has been working in interface and sensing technology for nearly 10 years, this is an astonishing combination of hardware and software. The few times I’ve been able to show researchers the underlying components, their jaws drop with amazement... and with good reason.

    But once you have the 3D information, you then have to interpret that cloud of points as "people". This is where the researcher jaws stay dropped. The human tracking algorithms that the teams have developed are well ahead of the state of the art in computer vision in this domain. The sophistication and performance of the algorithms rival or exceed anything that I've seen in academic research, never mind a consumer product."
    http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    BitFlipper said:
    Minh said:
    *snip*

    BTW, they didn't "license", nor "buy" Natal.  They were working in-house on the software part of it for a very long time.  When it came close to having an actual product to demo and send out to developers, they needed to own the hardware as well. So they bought a company that developed a 3D camera and which also owned a lot of patents on it. Two birds with one stone.

    As was said many times by those that know what they are talking about, both the hardware and software used in Natal is pretty cutting edge stuff.  To say that they didn't invent anything because they bought the hardware is pretty close-minded.

    You may or may not have heard of Johnny Chung Lee:

    "Speaking as someone who has been working in interface and sensing technology for nearly 10 years, this is an astonishing combination of hardware and software. The few times I’ve been able to show researchers the underlying components, their jaws drop with amazement... and with good reason.

    But once you have the 3D information, you then have to interpret that cloud of points as "people". This is where the researcher jaws stay dropped. The human tracking algorithms that the teams have developed are well ahead of the state of the art in computer vision in this domain. The sophistication and performance of the algorithms rival or exceed anything that I've seen in academic research, never mind a consumer product."
    http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

    Do you mean this Johnny Chung Lee?

    Johnny Chung Lee joins Project Natal

    I would still like to see some limited form of the this tech going into handheld devices in the future. Something that can identify your face and track simple hand movements in front of the screen without having to touch it.

     

  • User profile image
    contextfree

    PaoloM said:
    StalkeZERO said:
    *snip*

    Support for what? A product that "technically" does not exist?

    Windows 7 is pretty much done. If you are to ask for supporting some new technology, you should look at the next version.

    Doesn't MS often add support for new hardware in service packs?

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    So how far away are we from seeing the hardware? Not too far according to an Engadget rumour.

     

  • User profile image
    aL_

    PaoloM said:
    StalkeZERO said:
    *snip*

    Support for what? A product that "technically" does not exist?

    Windows 7 is pretty much done. If you are to ask for supporting some new technology, you should look at the next version.

    why you're probobly correct in that windows wont radically change to accomodate natal, having support for natal in windows doesnt require a new windows version or even any changee to windows it self. they just have to write a driver for the natal for wondows, like all hardware manufacturers do Smiley win7 already supports multitouch soo thats something they could get almost free.. also remember that the driver can map gestures to keystrokes, so makeing the natal play the next song in wmp (or vlc for that matter) should be to hard..

    even if there is no windows ui support at all just beeing able to program against the natal would be huuuuge.. natal could potentially change the scene as radically as the mouse did when it showed.. Smiley

  • User profile image
    aL_

    aL_ said:
    PaoloM said:
    *snip*

    why you're probobly correct in that windows wont radically change to accomodate natal, having support for natal in windows doesnt require a new windows version or even any changee to windows it self. they just have to write a driver for the natal for wondows, like all hardware manufacturers do Smiley win7 already supports multitouch soo thats something they could get almost free.. also remember that the driver can map gestures to keystrokes, so makeing the natal play the next song in wmp (or vlc for that matter) should be to hard..

    even if there is no windows ui support at all just beeing able to program against the natal would be huuuuge.. natal could potentially change the scene as radically as the mouse did when it showed.. Smiley

    in case you havent heard, billy G himself reckons natal is heading to windows Big Smile

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10286309-56.html

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.