Coffeehouse Thread

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David finally took down Goliath

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  • User profile image
    LeoDavidson

    Bas said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    ^ This, with a vengeance. I hate writing web applications. It's my job, but I hate it. I hate having to ditch smooth development of rich desktop applications in favor of having to write unreliable hacks in a language that's intended to display pages about cats rather than serve as an application framework. In order to work around the many disadvantages web applications have over rich client applications, we keep stacking more and more stuff on it, like AJAX and whatnot, and it just becomes more and more of an unworkable mess.

    Whenever I'm writing a web application, the ways in which I have to stuggle and wrestle with http, HTML, Javascript and CSS to do what I want feel like I'm using a wheelbarrow to push a dead horse over a finish line.

    So because we've all collectively decided that we should just keep adding to these awful outdated technologies to bring applications to the web, my job consists of pushing a dead horse over a finish line, using a wobbly wheelbarrow. Every. Single. Day.

    Lately, I've opted to to try and automate our development process rather than write more web stuff. I'm actually preferring having to wrestle with the EnvDTE namespaces, rather than writing for the web. It's that bad.

    I think a lot of the problem is how ill-conceived the basic/fundamental existing stuff is. That's certainly what seems to waste much of my time whenever I design a webpage. We don't so much need new stuff as better stuff. Most web standards should be taken outside and set fire to, then replaced with something better, except it's too late now and we're stuck with the stupid things.

    I mean, who the heck creates a layout system that doesn't allow for one item's x and y positions, widths, heights, etc. to be relative to other items'? (Sure, CSS can do it in a few cases, but they are exceptions and not the rule. You cannot say that one div should have the same height and half the width, and be placed relative to, another arbitrary div. You definitely cannot take properties from multiple other divs. What an absolute crock of failure.)

    Then again, I could say the same about most desktop UI frameworks. Sad

    Basic XML itself is okay and useful but the technologies (and specs, documentation/books/etc.) layered on top of XML are pretty awful, on the whole. (Pet hate: Specs/docs which talk about things they haven't actually defined yet, without even telling you they haven't defined them yet, for great confusion, re-reading and wondering if you accidentally skipped a page somewhere.) I mean, if XSLT didn't suck so much it could've done what CSS does so much better, IMO. As it is, I'd sooner convert XML content into HTML via C# or C++ code than mess with XSLT, and that can't be right.

     

  • User profile image
    Larry Osterman

    littleguru said:
    May28th2018 said:
    *snip*

    What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Why should someone implement something that might change from one day to the other?

    And if MSFT does implement it and it changes, then MSFT gets roasted over the coals for not following standards.

     

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Bas said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    ^ This, with a vengeance. I hate writing web applications. It's my job, but I hate it. I hate having to ditch smooth development of rich desktop applications in favor of having to write unreliable hacks in a language that's intended to display pages about cats rather than serve as an application framework. In order to work around the many disadvantages web applications have over rich client applications, we keep stacking more and more stuff on it, like AJAX and whatnot, and it just becomes more and more of an unworkable mess.

    Whenever I'm writing a web application, the ways in which I have to stuggle and wrestle with http, HTML, Javascript and CSS to do what I want feel like I'm using a wheelbarrow to push a dead horse over a finish line.

    So because we've all collectively decided that we should just keep adding to these awful outdated technologies to bring applications to the web, my job consists of pushing a dead horse over a finish line, using a wobbly wheelbarrow. Every. Single. Day.

    Lately, I've opted to to try and automate our development process rather than write more web stuff. I'm actually preferring having to wrestle with the EnvDTE namespaces, rather than writing for the web. It's that bad.

    Bas, fancy swapping jobs? Smiley

  • User profile image
    Bas

    W3bbo said:
    Bas said:
    *snip*

    Bas, fancy swapping jobs? Smiley

    Depends on what you do, really, but I'm open to the suggestion. Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    Bas said:
    W3bbo said:
    *snip*

    Depends on what you do, really, but I'm open to the suggestion. Tongue Out

    W3bbo is a gigollo for the rich & famous.

  • User profile image
    Bas

    TommyCarlier said:
    Bas said:
    *snip*

    W3bbo is a gigollo for the rich & famous.

    It's a deal.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Bas said:
    W3bbo said:
    *snip*

    Depends on what you do, really, but I'm open to the suggestion. Tongue Out

    I'm a student currently in his holiday time who wakes up at 1300h every day, gets washed/breakfast, arses around with his current pet project, then gets dinner, then goes to bed at 0200h. This cycle is getting repetitive and depressing.

    I've done subcontractor work for other C9 forum members in the past with positive feedback, so if you've got a job that could use my web skillz and isn't too badly paying I'd do it for you.

  • User profile image
    LeoDavidson

    W3bbo said:
    Bas said:
    *snip*

    I'm a student currently in his holiday time who wakes up at 1300h every day, gets washed/breakfast, arses around with his current pet project, then gets dinner, then goes to bed at 0200h. This cycle is getting repetitive and depressing.

    I've done subcontractor work for other C9 forum members in the past with positive feedback, so if you've got a job that could use my web skillz and isn't too badly paying I'd do it for you.

    Did you do some/all the work on Anolis.Resourcer? Nice work if so. Seems a great app!

     

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    joechung said:

    Internet Explorer isn't dead, not by a long shot.

    The Open Web platform (HTML/CSS/JS) has to compete against Flash, not Internet Explorer or Silverlight.  It's interesting that Internet Explorer's lack of adoption of HTML 5/CSS 3 strengthens Adobe's position, not Microsoft's.

    I can totally agree that FF3 killed FF2 and Chrome. And from June 2009 to July 2009, IE8 obviously killed both IE7 and FF3. Just look at the chart. Both IE7 and FF3 drops when IE8 rise. Now, oh no no no, that's screaminging IE8 taking over the world, the end is ni.

     

     

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    BTW, all theses talk. I thought MS already stated they are aiming to support Standard since IE8? So what's up with the talk of standards blah blah blah when we already know MS already committed to follow standard?

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    LeoDavidson said:
    W3bbo said:
    *snip*

    Did you do some/all the work on Anolis.Resourcer? Nice work if so. Seems a great app!

     

    Yes. Thought Sven Groot deserves some credit for helping me figure out some nasty bits involving PInvoke.

  • User profile image
    May28th2018

    LeoDavidson said:
    Bas said:
    *snip*

    I think a lot of the problem is how ill-conceived the basic/fundamental existing stuff is. That's certainly what seems to waste much of my time whenever I design a webpage. We don't so much need new stuff as better stuff. Most web standards should be taken outside and set fire to, then replaced with something better, except it's too late now and we're stuck with the stupid things.

    I mean, who the heck creates a layout system that doesn't allow for one item's x and y positions, widths, heights, etc. to be relative to other items'? (Sure, CSS can do it in a few cases, but they are exceptions and not the rule. You cannot say that one div should have the same height and half the width, and be placed relative to, another arbitrary div. You definitely cannot take properties from multiple other divs. What an absolute crock of failure.)

    Then again, I could say the same about most desktop UI frameworks. Sad

    Basic XML itself is okay and useful but the technologies (and specs, documentation/books/etc.) layered on top of XML are pretty awful, on the whole. (Pet hate: Specs/docs which talk about things they haven't actually defined yet, without even telling you they haven't defined them yet, for great confusion, re-reading and wondering if you accidentally skipped a page somewhere.) I mean, if XSLT didn't suck so much it could've done what CSS does so much better, IMO. As it is, I'd sooner convert XML content into HTML via C# or C++ code than mess with XSLT, and that can't be right.

     

    Sounds more like you're underpaid. Otherwise you wouldn't really care. I can't say I *really* care about it, except that IE just makes my job annoying. IE7 caused a huge problem today as a matter of fact where it was switching a DOM element between absolute and relative positioning for no reason at all when the CSS on the element was fixed at relative positioning. This was caused by the user simply clicking random points on the screen and anchor tags before the page load had completed.

    There is no firebug to edit CSS variables in real time and IE6, 7, 8, oh why the hell not, even 9 just sucks. I haven't used 9 yet, but from historical development, I already know it will suck.

    Just to test in IE6, I have to start a virtual machine and go into Windows XP to run multiple IEs. What a complete joke. FF runs side by side on any operating system.

    What a horrible joke that such shoddy development got 90% of the market share.

    At least when I come home I get to do PHP programming with ZF, and Java programming where I don't have to care if it works in IE.

    If this keeps going I'm going to have to use Google App Engine exclusively.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    May28th2018 said:
    LeoDavidson said:
    *snip*

    Sounds more like you're underpaid. Otherwise you wouldn't really care. I can't say I *really* care about it, except that IE just makes my job annoying. IE7 caused a huge problem today as a matter of fact where it was switching a DOM element between absolute and relative positioning for no reason at all when the CSS on the element was fixed at relative positioning. This was caused by the user simply clicking random points on the screen and anchor tags before the page load had completed.

    There is no firebug to edit CSS variables in real time and IE6, 7, 8, oh why the hell not, even 9 just sucks. I haven't used 9 yet, but from historical development, I already know it will suck.

    Just to test in IE6, I have to start a virtual machine and go into Windows XP to run multiple IEs. What a complete joke. FF runs side by side on any operating system.

    What a horrible joke that such shoddy development got 90% of the market share.

    At least when I come home I get to do PHP programming with ZF, and Java programming where I don't have to care if it works in IE.

    If this keeps going I'm going to have to use Google App Engine exclusively.

    You pretend like there are no possible problems with Firefox.

    There is no single application on my machine that crashes, locks up, or just plain breaks more often than Firefox. Since v2 it has refused to update. I have to uninstall it completely and download the latest installer from the website.

    At this point I don't care if the browser renders everything with pixel perfect precision. I just want it to work! This is why I've relegated FF to being the (red headed) stepchild who gets drug out once in a while for a beating and stuffed back in the closet.

  • User profile image
    littleguru

    May28th2018 said:
    LeoDavidson said:
    *snip*

    Sounds more like you're underpaid. Otherwise you wouldn't really care. I can't say I *really* care about it, except that IE just makes my job annoying. IE7 caused a huge problem today as a matter of fact where it was switching a DOM element between absolute and relative positioning for no reason at all when the CSS on the element was fixed at relative positioning. This was caused by the user simply clicking random points on the screen and anchor tags before the page load had completed.

    There is no firebug to edit CSS variables in real time and IE6, 7, 8, oh why the hell not, even 9 just sucks. I haven't used 9 yet, but from historical development, I already know it will suck.

    Just to test in IE6, I have to start a virtual machine and go into Windows XP to run multiple IEs. What a complete joke. FF runs side by side on any operating system.

    What a horrible joke that such shoddy development got 90% of the market share.

    At least when I come home I get to do PHP programming with ZF, and Java programming where I don't have to care if it works in IE.

    If this keeps going I'm going to have to use Google App Engine exclusively.

    ZF looks similar to ASP.NET MVC to me... do you know what exactly the differences are? Would be interesting...

  • User profile image
    Minh

    kettch said:
    May28th2018 said:
    *snip*

    You pretend like there are no possible problems with Firefox.

    There is no single application on my machine that crashes, locks up, or just plain breaks more often than Firefox. Since v2 it has refused to update. I have to uninstall it completely and download the latest installer from the website.

    At this point I don't care if the browser renders everything with pixel perfect precision. I just want it to work! This is why I've relegated FF to being the (red headed) stepchild who gets drug out once in a while for a beating and stuffed back in the closet.

    FF 3.5 on my netbook (Win7 / 1GB / SSD) is just plain broken. Simple pages peg out CPU.

    Whereas FF 3.5 on my Mac Mini (OSX / 1 GB) is just the best browsing experience I've ever had.

    Go figures.

    P.S.

    Yet another IE vulnerability. We keep hearing that IE isn't any less safe than other browsers, but why are these stories keep coming up for IE?

  • User profile image
    May28th2018

    littleguru said:
    May28th2018 said:
    *snip*

    ZF looks similar to ASP.NET MVC to me... do you know what exactly the differences are? Would be interesting...

    http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/


    RTFM buddy.

    There are a million MVC frameworks. Spring/Hibernate for Java(aspect oriented programming), ZF for PHP, ect...

    ZF is constantly updated and favored by Google, which is part of why I use it. ZF also has training and certification available where other PHP frameworks do not. ZF has it's own IDE in Zend Studio which refactors the MVC parts automatically and there are other reasons.

    ZF seems to include default APIs for the latest vogue SaaS on the web as soon as it becomes available and popular enough. ZF is nothing special as far as MVCs go architecturally except that it is the chosen one.

    The first MVC I ever worked with was the dreaded Doc/View SDI/MDI in Microsoft C++. It was so badly crafted and hard to use that it made me hate MVC frameworks for a long time.

  • User profile image
    littleguru

    May28th2018 said:
    littleguru said:
    *snip*

    http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/


    RTFM buddy.

    There are a million MVC frameworks. Spring/Hibernate for Java(aspect oriented programming), ZF for PHP, ect...

    ZF is constantly updated and favored by Google, which is part of why I use it. ZF also has training and certification available where other PHP frameworks do not. ZF has it's own IDE in Zend Studio which refactors the MVC parts automatically and there are other reasons.

    ZF seems to include default APIs for the latest vogue SaaS on the web as soon as it becomes available and popular enough. ZF is nothing special as far as MVCs go architecturally except that it is the chosen one.

    The first MVC I ever worked with was the dreaded Doc/View SDI/MDI in Microsoft C++. It was so badly crafted and hard to use that it made me hate MVC frameworks for a long time.

    I have seen that ZF is a MVC framework. I was just curious to know how it differs from ASP.NET MVC. I'm not a big fan of PHP and avoid it as much as I can. It would have been nice to see if there's something in that framework that would be nice to have in ASP.NET MVC. That's why I was wondering if there's some charts that compare these both framework...

    Nevertheless the framework seems to be nicely crafted. I like the idea of having all components to be independent and yet form a powerful framework when brought together.

  • User profile image
    May28th2018

    littleguru said:
    May28th2018 said:
    *snip*

    I have seen that ZF is a MVC framework. I was just curious to know how it differs from ASP.NET MVC. I'm not a big fan of PHP and avoid it as much as I can. It would have been nice to see if there's something in that framework that would be nice to have in ASP.NET MVC. That's why I was wondering if there's some charts that compare these both framework...

    Nevertheless the framework seems to be nicely crafted. I like the idea of having all components to be independent and yet form a powerful framework when brought together.

    You sound lazy. The framework features are documented in a table of contents that I so nicely linked in my last post.

    You need to RTFM or STFU. I mean that in the nicest way.

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