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Silverlight in Opera

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  • User profile image
    turrican

    I don't know why Silverlight won't work in Opera ( while Flash works in it ). I don't care what politics are behind it. I want Silverlight to work in Opera. Until then, I will not develop any Silverlight applications. Is it too much to ask as a developer who has been loyal to Microsoft for 16 years? I mean really, is it?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Explanation. Apparently it's the browser developer's fault for providing an inconsistent implementation of NPAPI, or not exposing an ActiveX host for use.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    W3bbo said:

    Explanation. Apparently it's the browser developer's fault for providing an inconsistent implementation of NPAPI, or not exposing an ActiveX host for use.

    Yes... but... Flash works... so should Silverlight. Microsoft should work things like this out somehow, either themselves or with Opera devs. No?

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    turrican said:
    W3bbo said:
    *snip*

    Yes... but... Flash works... so should Silverlight. Microsoft should work things like this out somehow, either themselves or with Opera devs. No?

    I can see your point, but I think there must be a serious hindrance to Silverlight support as it is in both parties best interests to ensure that Silverlight works.

     

    Opera ostrasize their users by providing a browser that cannot do what all others can, and Microsoft look to be at fault for the plug-in not working. You could take your "flash works" argument, or you could also say Silverlight works in Safari, Firefox and IE so the fault lies with Opera.

     

    My own website renders well in IE/Firefox/Safari, but Opera messes it up. I decided I had better things to do with my time, than fix pesky Opera issues. I know the fanboys will say that it is conformant yada yada yada... but, if it works in three popular browsers, what is it the prohibits Opera from following suit?

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    turrican said:
    W3bbo said:
    *snip*

    Yes... but... Flash works... so should Silverlight. Microsoft should work things like this out somehow, either themselves or with Opera devs. No?

    did you read the link?

     

    Opera is not supporting / or is not correctly supporting the plugin for silverlight.

    MS is supportig the Netscape model and the IE active x model and they work with most of the others ...

    also note that Opera is about 2% of the browsers so should microsoft make a 3rd plugin to work with less than 3% of all users ?

    or perhaps Opera should fix thier plugin API to work with over 90% of the market ?

     

    I say Opera is broke and needs to be fixed. Flash may have extra code they use to make it work and they could remove that if Opera were to fix thier code.

     

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    figuerres said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    did you read the link?

     

    Opera is not supporting / or is not correctly supporting the plugin for silverlight.

    MS is supportig the Netscape model and the IE active x model and they work with most of the others ...

    also note that Opera is about 2% of the browsers so should microsoft make a 3rd plugin to work with less than 3% of all users ?

    or perhaps Opera should fix thier plugin API to work with over 90% of the market ?

     

    I say Opera is broke and needs to be fixed. Flash may have extra code they use to make it work and they could remove that if Opera were to fix thier code.

     

    Ah from the opera web site:

     

    http://www.opera.com/press/faq/

     

    "Do plug-ins work with Opera?

    Yes. Opera’s plug-in API is very similar to Netscape’s, meaning that most plug-ins that work with Netscape also work with Opera."

     

    so they have something thats not quite the same as the NS API and as such does not work with all plugins that use the NS API interface.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    vesuvius said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    I can see your point, but I think there must be a serious hindrance to Silverlight support as it is in both parties best interests to ensure that Silverlight works.

     

    Opera ostrasize their users by providing a browser that cannot do what all others can, and Microsoft look to be at fault for the plug-in not working. You could take your "flash works" argument, or you could also say Silverlight works in Safari, Firefox and IE so the fault lies with Opera.

     

    My own website renders well in IE/Firefox/Safari, but Opera messes it up. I decided I had better things to do with my time, than fix pesky Opera issues. I know the fanboys will say that it is conformant yada yada yada... but, if it works in three popular browsers, what is it the prohibits Opera from following suit?

    Yepp, the fault is I think on both parties but nevertheless, Microsoft wants Silverlight adoption so they should fix it somehow.

     

    Regarding the Opera weird issues, if you make your website XHTML STRICT 1.0, it'll work in Opera too. However, I know that Opera is a bit "odd". What I usually try to do is not to use too much fancy specialized weird stuff, this way, less stuff will be there to break.

    Oh how this webdevelopment can be hell at times :/

  • User profile image
    turrican

    figuerres said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    Ah from the opera web site:

     

    http://www.opera.com/press/faq/

     

    "Do plug-ins work with Opera?

    Yes. Opera’s plug-in API is very similar to Netscape’s, meaning that most plug-ins that work with Netscape also work with Opera."

     

    so they have something thats not quite the same as the NS API and as such does not work with all plugins that use the NS API interface.

    I understand what you say, I agree... but! ( there is always that but Smiley )... as I stated earlier, I as a developer couldn't care less why. Microsoft as a business trying to make Silverlight adoption more wider, should fix this issue, no matter what.

    There are not a lot of people using Opera, but there are a LOT of developers using Opera. And until Silverlight won't work in "our" default browser, most of us just like me will not create Silverlight-anything.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but what made Microsoft and Windows great is the developers creating so many apps, no? I see Silverlight support for Opera as a critical business decision which Microsoft needs to take and put politics aside.

    I'm certain that Silverlight CAN work with Opera IF they want it to. After all, Flash works. Ok, maybe with extra customized code here or there which Adobe put in it, but nevertheless, it works and end of story. So should be the case for Silverlight, as a dev, I don't care why yada yada yada, just make it work so I can use it.

    Frankly, I get a little "Linux" feel regarding Silverlight and Opera here. Like when Linux people refuse to fix something and blame some technical mumbo jumbo... or when they refuse to fix good gUI and expect doctors to be able to compile the kernel. The doctor just wants the PC to work, that's all.

    I, as a dev, just want Silverlight to work in ALL browsers, so I can develop for it. I don't care about politics behind it. If it is a tool which Microsoft wants large adoption for to compete with Flash... well, they should just do it.

    Sorry for the long rant.

     

    EDIT : Ofcourse, all my rant here is null if Microsoft actually does NOT want wide Silverlight adoption just yet perhaps.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    turrican said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    Yepp, the fault is I think on both parties but nevertheless, Microsoft wants Silverlight adoption so they should fix it somehow.

     

    Regarding the Opera weird issues, if you make your website XHTML STRICT 1.0, it'll work in Opera too. However, I know that Opera is a bit "odd". What I usually try to do is not to use too much fancy specialized weird stuff, this way, less stuff will be there to break.

    Oh how this webdevelopment can be hell at times :/

    I did make my website XHTML STRICT 1.0 and validated it against the WC3, but I still got strange layout in Opera. I thinks it was to do with CSS, but because I went through the effort of making it (the website) compliant, I decided I'd rather watch paint dry, that resolve Opera's issues.

     

    As a counter argument ( remember I am being devils advocate here), if I have a product called Silverlight that works in 97% of web browsers and does not work in 3% of Opera browsers, there is no easy way to say this but "too bad".

     

    I think this is the position Microsoft have taken, hence the muted response. Until Opera gets to lets say 10% of the Market share, then nowt will be done about it.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    turrican said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    I understand what you say, I agree... but! ( there is always that but Smiley )... as I stated earlier, I as a developer couldn't care less why. Microsoft as a business trying to make Silverlight adoption more wider, should fix this issue, no matter what.

    There are not a lot of people using Opera, but there are a LOT of developers using Opera. And until Silverlight won't work in "our" default browser, most of us just like me will not create Silverlight-anything.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but what made Microsoft and Windows great is the developers creating so many apps, no? I see Silverlight support for Opera as a critical business decision which Microsoft needs to take and put politics aside.

    I'm certain that Silverlight CAN work with Opera IF they want it to. After all, Flash works. Ok, maybe with extra customized code here or there which Adobe put in it, but nevertheless, it works and end of story. So should be the case for Silverlight, as a dev, I don't care why yada yada yada, just make it work so I can use it.

    Frankly, I get a little "Linux" feel regarding Silverlight and Opera here. Like when Linux people refuse to fix something and blame some technical mumbo jumbo... or when they refuse to fix good gUI and expect doctors to be able to compile the kernel. The doctor just wants the PC to work, that's all.

    I, as a dev, just want Silverlight to work in ALL browsers, so I can develop for it. I don't care about politics behind it. If it is a tool which Microsoft wants large adoption for to compete with Flash... well, they should just do it.

    Sorry for the long rant.

     

    EDIT : Ofcourse, all my rant here is null if Microsoft actually does NOT want wide Silverlight adoption just yet perhaps.

    "Oh how this webdevelopment can be hell at times :/"

     

    that Nails it!

     

    it can be as long as we keep failing to demand that standards work.

     

    and just to be clear that as i understand it the whole HTML and CSS pile of standards have holes so big you can have two different browsers each claim to follow the standard and yet have different rendering on page.

     

    we have to get with one real standard and have all the browsers draw the same page given the same input.

     

    same with plugins we have two "almost standard" standards and not all browsers follow them...

     

    so saying "I don't care just make it work" leads us to more and more issues with different versions of stuff to then try and work with.

     

    So please if you are going to use Opera then talk to them about working on a standard plugin and a better html standard.

     

    if we all went down the path of just make it work then we would be left with IE 5 rendering in IE9 and with no way to ever make one web page look the same in any two browsers! NO THANKS!!! please let's not go that way with any software or standards.

     

  • User profile image
    turrican

    vesuvius said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    I did make my website XHTML STRICT 1.0 and validated it against the WC3, but I still got strange layout in Opera. I thinks it was to do with CSS, but because I went through the effort of making it (the website) compliant, I decided I'd rather watch paint dry, that resolve Opera's issues.

     

    As a counter argument ( remember I am being devils advocate here), if I have a product called Silverlight that works in 97% of web browsers and does not work in 3% of Opera browsers, there is no easy way to say this but "too bad".

     

    I think this is the position Microsoft have taken, hence the muted response. Until Opera gets to lets say 10% of the Market share, then nowt will be done about it.

    About the CSS bug, yeah, I see those too and VERY annoying. :/

    Your SL argument might be true... but there is another side to this coin. I'll give you a real life example : I'm just one person, one tiny little dev sitting and complaining about SL and Opera. However, I am in a decision making position where I work. Which means, if I make something Silverlight ( which I actually really would like to do ) it will be pushed out to... now listen to this : 8-10000 business customers !!! each having their own websites which each reaches many end users.

    Now, I want to hear anyone at Microsoft business decision section or the Silverlight team still telling me "You are just one person, you don't matter."


    My point is, it's not the browser marketshare which makes or will make Silverlight important and help its adoption, it's the developers. and trust me, there are many many many like me.

    Besides, Opera has almost half of Safari's marketshare ( http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0 ) it's still a big chunk. It's not like Linux having less than 1%. I know I sound selfish and you could say "So use IE", but the thing is that I won't. I simply won't. I use Microsoft products all day everyday both in business and private and I LOVE Silverlight and its potential. But Silverlight/Opera issue is still a big enough problem for me.

    Just food for thought.

     

    Smiley

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    turrican said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    About the CSS bug, yeah, I see those too and VERY annoying. :/

    Your SL argument might be true... but there is another side to this coin. I'll give you a real life example : I'm just one person, one tiny little dev sitting and complaining about SL and Opera. However, I am in a decision making position where I work. Which means, if I make something Silverlight ( which I actually really would like to do ) it will be pushed out to... now listen to this : 8-10000 business customers !!! each having their own websites which each reaches many end users.

    Now, I want to hear anyone at Microsoft business decision section or the Silverlight team still telling me "You are just one person, you don't matter."


    My point is, it's not the browser marketshare which makes or will make Silverlight important and help its adoption, it's the developers. and trust me, there are many many many like me.

    Besides, Opera has almost half of Safari's marketshare ( http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0 ) it's still a big chunk. It's not like Linux having less than 1%. I know I sound selfish and you could say "So use IE", but the thing is that I won't. I simply won't. I use Microsoft products all day everyday both in business and private and I LOVE Silverlight and its potential. But Silverlight/Opera issue is still a big enough problem for me.

    Just food for thought.

     

    Smiley

    or the reverse:  get all the developers whole like opera to tell the opera developers to find out what's wrong and talk to MS about how to fix it.

     

    or write an opera plugin that exposes a netscape api compatable plugin api and then silverlight will work in opera.

     

     

  • User profile image
    turrican

    figuerres said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    or the reverse:  get all the developers whole like opera to tell the opera developers to find out what's wrong and talk to MS about how to fix it.

     

    or write an opera plugin that exposes a netscape api compatable plugin api and then silverlight will work in opera.

     

     

    I have done that, bitching on Opera that is. hehhe... thing is, Microsoft has more power than little guy like me. And also, it's Silverlight which is Microsoft's product which I want to make applications for, not Opera. So I can't go to Opera telling them to fix the browser with SL so I can use their rival's (Microsoft ) product with it.

    EDIT : Regarding writing my own plugin, that is not a good solution. As I said, I don't want extra stuff to do. MS has a product which doesn't work with Opera, why should "I" fix it? Besides, when MS fixes it, it will be officially supported. Which is way different than me making some crappy customization somewhere.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    turrican said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    About the CSS bug, yeah, I see those too and VERY annoying. :/

    Your SL argument might be true... but there is another side to this coin. I'll give you a real life example : I'm just one person, one tiny little dev sitting and complaining about SL and Opera. However, I am in a decision making position where I work. Which means, if I make something Silverlight ( which I actually really would like to do ) it will be pushed out to... now listen to this : 8-10000 business customers !!! each having their own websites which each reaches many end users.

    Now, I want to hear anyone at Microsoft business decision section or the Silverlight team still telling me "You are just one person, you don't matter."


    My point is, it's not the browser marketshare which makes or will make Silverlight important and help its adoption, it's the developers. and trust me, there are many many many like me.

    Besides, Opera has almost half of Safari's marketshare ( http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0 ) it's still a big chunk. It's not like Linux having less than 1%. I know I sound selfish and you could say "So use IE", but the thing is that I won't. I simply won't. I use Microsoft products all day everyday both in business and private and I LOVE Silverlight and its potential. But Silverlight/Opera issue is still a big enough problem for me.

    Just food for thought.

     

    Smiley

    That’s just the thing.


    Business decisions are about pragmatism rather than personal preference. If I can create an application that reduces my enterprise bill by 2 million, by having a Silverlight application that runs in a browser and it has to be IE, then so be it. In fact I don't think there is a single IT department worth its salt that stipulates Opera as the recommended browser. Most IE6 users today tend to be business and they move very slowly technologically. If you are an entity like the NFL or Olympics, where people watching video is the nub of your business, then you will invest $$ into a cutting edge Silverlight application, and they will have chosen Silverlight specifically because it runs in 97% of all browsers without the horror stories and usability issues of flash
     
    You need to separate this argument to either your head or your heart, and at present your heart is guiding the decision process which is not a bad thing in itself, but falls short when making the business case.

     

    This is a pure numbers game, that I think the Opera community need to try and identify, Microsoft has a lot of technologies that they make that please 95% of the people, pleasing the other 5% would end up taking 20% of your overall resources and time, so it's impossible to justify the financial expenditure, when the rewards are pleasing a fiftieth of the browser market. If the world was perfect, then you could and would expend the time to correct the issue (even work with the Opera team directly, who have caused them all sorts of issues in the EU)

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    turrican said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    I have done that, bitching on Opera that is. hehhe... thing is, Microsoft has more power than little guy like me. And also, it's Silverlight which is Microsoft's product which I want to make applications for, not Opera. So I can't go to Opera telling them to fix the browser with SL so I can use their rival's (Microsoft ) product with it.

    EDIT : Regarding writing my own plugin, that is not a good solution. As I said, I don't want extra stuff to do. MS has a product which doesn't work with Opera, why should "I" fix it? Besides, when MS fixes it, it will be officially supported. Which is way different than me making some crappy customization somewhere.

    Opera decided that fighting in the marketplace by building a better product is much more expensive than actually whine with the EU or other government bodies.

     

    Obviously providing a correct implementation of the defacto standard NSAPI/COM plugin architectures costs them money and time, and they probably figured out that they could just dump on big bad Micro$oft all their crappy mistakes.

     

    Oh well, maybe someone should sue them for not supporting standards.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    turrican said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    I have done that, bitching on Opera that is. hehhe... thing is, Microsoft has more power than little guy like me. And also, it's Silverlight which is Microsoft's product which I want to make applications for, not Opera. So I can't go to Opera telling them to fix the browser with SL so I can use their rival's (Microsoft ) product with it.

    EDIT : Regarding writing my own plugin, that is not a good solution. As I said, I don't want extra stuff to do. MS has a product which doesn't work with Opera, why should "I" fix it? Besides, when MS fixes it, it will be officially supported. Which is way different than me making some crappy customization somewhere.

    RIght ... almost.

     

    see thats the thing .. put yourself in to the seat of a PM at microsoft.

    you have a budget to work with, you have limits on how many developer and tester man hours to use.

    justify the cost to your boss at MS on why they should spend x amount of money on Opera.

    as compared to not doing it and letting Opera fix thier product, for MS what is the cost of what they have chosen to do?

     

    they are doing the right thing at this time in this issue in my opinion.

    you see this otherwise and i think you are not looking at the "Big picture"

     

    to be clear when i belive MS is wrong i says so. I have been on them about many things and if i saw that Opera was in the right on this i would say so.

     

    like i said they need to stick with a standard plugin model / api so that silverlight can work the same way on multiple browsers.

    they have done so with firefox, chrome, safari and IE

    it is in Operas interest to work with MS on this issue, if they can show MS that MS has it wrong then i think MS will fix what they have done wrong and make it work.

     

    but if MS is follwing the standard and Opera is not then it is 100% a problem for Opera to fix.

     

    I would even bet that if I were in a room with a bunch of your business customers and we had this same discussion in person that by now 70-90% of them would vote on my side of the debate. REALLY.

    just talk to any CFO /CIO or CEO about spending money to make something cover the last few percent ... they will generally say something like "if it works for 95% or more of my customers then i am happy" even more so if the cost of adding that last 5% gets to be very much ... and generally that last 5% will cost more than it's really worth.

    not always, just in general.  

     

    if it's a medical device that keeps someone alive, of if it's mitlitary and keeps a bomb from going off at the wrong time then different rules apply.

     

  • User profile image
    turrican

    PaoloM said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    Opera decided that fighting in the marketplace by building a better product is much more expensive than actually whine with the EU or other government bodies.

     

    Obviously providing a correct implementation of the defacto standard NSAPI/COM plugin architectures costs them money and time, and they probably figured out that they could just dump on big bad Micro$oft all their crappy mistakes.

     

    Oh well, maybe someone should sue them for not supporting standards.

    I fully agree. I do dislike Opera corp, sadly, I'm so very hooked on the browser. hehhe... but yeah, big guys fight, little guy get hurt in the middle.

     

    Smiley

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    PaoloM said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    Opera decided that fighting in the marketplace by building a better product is much more expensive than actually whine with the EU or other government bodies.

     

    Obviously providing a correct implementation of the defacto standard NSAPI/COM plugin architectures costs them money and time, and they probably figured out that they could just dump on big bad Micro$oft all their crappy mistakes.

     

    Oh well, maybe someone should sue them for not supporting standards.

    but NPAPI is not a de-jure standard, not is it particularly well-documented (the most concise resource on this is Mozilla's, but that's biased towards their implementation).

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