Coffeehouse Thread

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Web2 = Web.Refactor();

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  • User profile image
    exoteric

    Anyone seen through the entire AJAX presentation by Douglas Crockford on YUI Theater? It is pretty scary to hear the numerous problems with various Web standards painstakingly enumerated and how history shaped what is the Web as we know it. It makes me think that at some point in the future there will be a complete systematic refactor of the Web stack (side-by-side with the current one).

     

    What would HTML look like if you could start from scratch? Would you use M as a basis instead of SGML? What would CSS look like if you could start from scratch? What about the DOM? M too? And so on...

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    I really liked his lectures. Now I'm patiently waiting for his last lecture next Wednesday.

    P.S.: for an overview of all the lectures: Crockford on JavaScript.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    Yeah, I have said for a *LONG* time that we have a mess out there...

    the "Web" when we talk about HTML and HTTP was built to do one set of things and what we often do with it now is very different.

    I really even think we might benefit from two new stacks / models:

     

    APP:   targeted at delivering "Applications" ober the internet and would be somewhat like SIlverlight but w/o the html browser.

     

    WEB:  targeted at delivering  modern "Web sites" that may also be consumer portals like facebook, amazon etc....

     

    both of them could be done to use the same client browser and that client should handle three protocols HTTP/HTTPS , APP and WEB

    so that you can link betwwen them.

     

    APP and WEB markup and layout should be built to allow things that HTML and CSS have so many issues with like fitting the browser window and anchoring a block to an edge of the window (html and css can stick to the top or the left easy but geting them to anchor to the bottom of the window involves huge hacks....  applications like to use a WINDOW not a DOCUMENT.

     

    HTML was made for DOCUMENTS not for Applications.

     

     

     

     

  • User profile image
    turrican

    figuerres said:

    Yeah, I have said for a *LONG* time that we have a mess out there...

    the "Web" when we talk about HTML and HTTP was built to do one set of things and what we often do with it now is very different.

    I really even think we might benefit from two new stacks / models:

     

    APP:   targeted at delivering "Applications" ober the internet and would be somewhat like SIlverlight but w/o the html browser.

     

    WEB:  targeted at delivering  modern "Web sites" that may also be consumer portals like facebook, amazon etc....

     

    both of them could be done to use the same client browser and that client should handle three protocols HTTP/HTTPS , APP and WEB

    so that you can link betwwen them.

     

    APP and WEB markup and layout should be built to allow things that HTML and CSS have so many issues with like fitting the browser window and anchoring a block to an edge of the window (html and css can stick to the top or the left easy but geting them to anchor to the bottom of the window involves huge hacks....  applications like to use a WINDOW not a DOCUMENT.

     

    HTML was made for DOCUMENTS not for Applications.

     

     

     

     

    Always been my pet peeve with this, they are trying to reinvent the wheel ( Windows Applications ) with totally wrong tools "html and javascript". I think Silverlight will be a very very big thing in the future because "AJAX" just wont' cut it.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    Silverlight.

    Smiley

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    turrican said:

    Silverlight.

    Smiley

    ....And WPF before it.

     

    It's going to be interesting following the battle between these two technologies.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    exoteric said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    ....And WPF before it.

     

    It's going to be interesting following the battle between these two technologies.

    Yeah.

     

    The thing about WPF is that it's a little hm, "old" tech, as in... "local application", Silverlight changes that so I think we'll see more SL than WPF in the future. Not saying Windows sux or anything, but Silverlight makes deployment so easy. No more running around upgrading peoples apps or auto updates, installations etc. That's my biggest issue with "local" apps.

     

    At the end of the day, my money will be on Silverlight.

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    turrican said:
    exoteric said:
    *snip*

    Yeah.

     

    The thing about WPF is that it's a little hm, "old" tech, as in... "local application", Silverlight changes that so I think we'll see more SL than WPF in the future. Not saying Windows sux or anything, but Silverlight makes deployment so easy. No more running around upgrading peoples apps or auto updates, installations etc. That's my biggest issue with "local" apps.

     

    At the end of the day, my money will be on Silverlight.

    clickonce.

     

    Also, the web will never be a pretty dev playground, by the time it catches up to what devs want, that won't be what they want anymore.

     

    Same for anything, only 'anything' is generally a hell of a lot more agile that the web is, and therefore can change reasonably rapidly (in comparison).

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    turrican said:
    exoteric said:
    *snip*

    Yeah.

     

    The thing about WPF is that it's a little hm, "old" tech, as in... "local application", Silverlight changes that so I think we'll see more SL than WPF in the future. Not saying Windows sux or anything, but Silverlight makes deployment so easy. No more running around upgrading peoples apps or auto updates, installations etc. That's my biggest issue with "local" apps.

     

    At the end of the day, my money will be on Silverlight.

    There are more more websites and web applications than there are desktop applications, so it stands to reason that there will be more Silverlight applications than WPF. It's not a competition, but how the cookie crumbles.

     

    I have just finished a WPF application that could not be done in Silverlight because it needs to interact with Windows and third party libraries that are sandboxed in Silverlight.

     

    There will always be a need for both web and desktop clients. Silverlight ships with a really aneamic set of capabilities for some scenarios, whereby getting parity with WPF results in you having a pretty big .xap, almost has big as the patch on your head from scratching it trying to figure out how to do something in Silverlight that is a cinch to do in WPF.

     

     

  • User profile image
    turrican

    vesuvius said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    There are more more websites and web applications than there are desktop applications, so it stands to reason that there will be more Silverlight applications than WPF. It's not a competition, but how the cookie crumbles.

     

    I have just finished a WPF application that could not be done in Silverlight because it needs to interact with Windows and third party libraries that are sandboxed in Silverlight.

     

    There will always be a need for both web and desktop clients. Silverlight ships with a really aneamic set of capabilities for some scenarios, whereby getting parity with WPF results in you having a pretty big .xap, almost has big as the patch on your head from scratching it trying to figure out how to do something in Silverlight that is a cinch to do in WPF.

     

     

    I agree. Things are much more simple in WPF world.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    turrican said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    I agree. Things are much more simple in WPF world.

    Steve Jobs has declared that the answer is HTML5... therefore, end of discussion.

  • User profile image
    turrican

    elmer said:
    turrican said:
    *snip*

    Steve Jobs has declared that the answer is HTML5... therefore, end of discussion.

    Damn it, I'll have to buy a Mac now. hehhe ... I think I just threw up a little in my mouth even from the thought of it.

    Tongue Out

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