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Steve Jobs on Flash

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  • User profile image
    Ian2
  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    I think the bigger issue is Section 3.3.1.  I can live without flash and yes *eek* silverlight. I think Steve is just beating a dead horse here.

     

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    So, even CEO's are not immune from starting flame-wars.

     

    In a nutshell what Jobs says is that Adobe has been caught asleep like the music industry was when .mp3's and the internet came about. Apple was not fast asleep, so you have iPods and iTunes.

     

    I would hate to be an executive at Adobe, because this basically says "we gave them time to innovate, they were late (we did not hold our breath), now they want a piece of our hard earned cake for free to promote their company". I have to say I agree with Steve, because they [adobe] have not produced anything innovative since adobe reader a decade or so ago. Ever since they have trundled along just thinking people would automatically use flash.

     

    I would say that post is the sound of nails being hammered ostentatiously into flash's coffin.

  • User profile image
    bureX

    "New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."

    If Apple and Adobe were in good relations and this lead to Flash being ported and fully supported on the iPhone, Steve would have gone on about the brilliancy and the unprecedented potential of flash apps on the "worlds most advanced smartphone platform"... In short - I hate PR stunts, Steve is just talking out of his * again and has no real opinion of his own.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    JoshRoss said:

    I think the bigger issue is Section 3.3.1.  I can live without flash and yes *eek* silverlight. I think Steve is just beating a dead horse here.

     

    -Josh

    I know you can say section 3.3.1 is straight from the horses mouth, and some may say that it's horses for courses, but the abobe executive appear to still think that people are looking a gift horse in the mouth

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    vesuvius said:

    So, even CEO's are not immune from starting flame-wars.

     

    In a nutshell what Jobs says is that Adobe has been caught asleep like the music industry was when .mp3's and the internet came about. Apple was not fast asleep, so you have iPods and iTunes.

     

    I would hate to be an executive at Adobe, because this basically says "we gave them time to innovate, they were late (we did not hold our breath), now they want a piece of our hard earned cake for free to promote their company". I have to say I agree with Steve, because they [adobe] have not produced anything innovative since adobe reader a decade or so ago. Ever since they have trundled along just thinking people would automatically use flash.

     

    I would say that post is the sound of nails being hammered ostentatiously into flash's coffin.

    Flash was not always Adobe's property, they certainly didn't invent it, not that it was ever very novel in any way - but it's been a very fun toy, albeit deeply deprived of computationally power.

     

    Adobe has always produced high quality products in my oppinion but when it comes to Flash they've played protectionist and not been sufficiently innovative, aggressive or both - not to say open. And that's not good for a closed platform when things like Silverlight, HTML 5 and orders of magnitude faster browsers happen to you.

     

    This may be good news for Microsoft and Silverlight or it may be bad news (people being more wary of adopting proprietary technologies, especially when The Prophet has spoken and acted) but at least there is Moonlight as secondary and open "implementation of" Silverlight. And Microsoft is also betting on both horses now (Silverlight + HTML and friends)...

     

    There will come a time when the Web stack will have to be refactored and depending on how advanced Silverlight et al are at the time and whether Microsoft has committed itself to open-sourcing it or move to standardization, it might be a strong contender, unless technological evolution has moved us to more radical paradigms at that time.

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    -forum malfunction-

  • User profile image
    ManipUni

    Apart from the Apple is open part (ha ha, Steve, sure, ok...) I actually agree with everything else he said. Frankly I don't even want Flash Player on my PC let alone eating tons of battery time to force feed me adverts on my mobile device.

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    Steve Jobs says:

     

    "Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open."

     

    But doesn't he still want proprietary standards for video and audio formats, and wants the HTML5 video and audio tag to use Apple supported formats instead of something like OGG?

     

     

  • User profile image
    Cannot​Resolve​Symbol

    brian.shapiro said:

    Steve Jobs says:

     

    "Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open."

     

    But doesn't he still want proprietary standards for video and audio formats, and wants the HTML5 video and audio tag to use Apple supported formats instead of something like OGG?

     

     

    Good luck finding an efficient hardware decoder for OGG...  or an efficient software decoder, for that matter.

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    ManipUni said:

    Apart from the Apple is open part (ha ha, Steve, sure, ok...) I actually agree with everything else he said. Frankly I don't even want Flash Player on my PC let alone eating tons of battery time to force feed me adverts on my mobile device.

    Really? Everything? Cause I actually laughed out loud at this little bit:

     

    "There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world."

     

    Uh huh. Yeah... I'm buying that.

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    CannotResolveSymbol said:
    brian.shapiro said:
    *snip*

    Good luck finding an efficient hardware decoder for OGG...  or an efficient software decoder, for that matter.

    That's not the point. If Apple/Steve wants an "open web", he should not be pushing for closed video formats, regardless of who owns them. In this case, though, since they do own them OGG isn't the only solution... but of course they're not about to open these codecs up.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    exoteric said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    Flash was not always Adobe's property, they certainly didn't invent it, not that it was ever very novel in any way - but it's been a very fun toy, albeit deeply deprived of computationally power.

     

    Adobe has always produced high quality products in my oppinion but when it comes to Flash they've played protectionist and not been sufficiently innovative, aggressive or both - not to say open. And that's not good for a closed platform when things like Silverlight, HTML 5 and orders of magnitude faster browsers happen to you.

     

    This may be good news for Microsoft and Silverlight or it may be bad news (people being more wary of adopting proprietary technologies, especially when The Prophet has spoken and acted) but at least there is Moonlight as secondary and open "implementation of" Silverlight. And Microsoft is also betting on both horses now (Silverlight + HTML and friends)...

     

    There will come a time when the Web stack will have to be refactored and depending on how advanced Silverlight et al are at the time and whether Microsoft has committed itself to open-sourcing it or move to standardization, it might be a strong contender, unless technological evolution has moved us to more radical paradigms at that time.

    I disagree with your assessment that Flash wasn't very very novel:

     

    Flash brought professional-level animation to the masses. It democratised vector animation and significantly flattened the learning (and effort) curves.

     

    Lots of us will remember how Java applets were used from the mid-1990s onwards for things like in-browser games and scientific demonstrations, often crudely made because Java Applets are for programmers, not designers. Flash flipped the tables around and made it easy to make a polished impression: hundreds of thousands of Flash games, videos, and animations undoubtably changed the web for the better.

     

    Then in 2002 Flash 6 came out with support for video, thus marking the beginning of the end for plugin-video handlers: we all remember horrid experiences with the WMP control and QuickTime.

     

    Flash has been innovating, but remember it's a product for designers, not developers. You won't hear them innovating on parallelisation or lambda expressions.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    wkempf said:
    ManipUni said:
    *snip*

    Really? Everything? Cause I actually laughed out loud at this little bit:

     

    "There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world."

     

    Uh huh. Yeah... I'm buying that.

    I assume Jobs was referring to things like games consoles and portables, because it's otherwise true: for games to be published on the Xbox, PS3, or Wii they need to go through full approval of Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo respectively, tack on high production values necessary to justify the code of the SDK license and it's easy to see why the substantially lower barrier for entry on the Cocoa Touch platform has brought us tens of thousands of entertainment programs.

     

    Less compared to Flash, but that's not a hardware platform. Big difference in Steve's eyes.

     

    oh, and don't forget his RDF.

  • User profile image
    ManipUni

    W3bbo said:
    exoteric said:
    *snip*

    I disagree with your assessment that Flash wasn't very very novel:

     

    Flash brought professional-level animation to the masses. It democratised vector animation and significantly flattened the learning (and effort) curves.

     

    Lots of us will remember how Java applets were used from the mid-1990s onwards for things like in-browser games and scientific demonstrations, often crudely made because Java Applets are for programmers, not designers. Flash flipped the tables around and made it easy to make a polished impression: hundreds of thousands of Flash games, videos, and animations undoubtably changed the web for the better.

     

    Then in 2002 Flash 6 came out with support for video, thus marking the beginning of the end for plugin-video handlers: we all remember horrid experiences with the WMP control and QuickTime.

     

    Flash has been innovating, but remember it's a product for designers, not developers. You won't hear them innovating on parallelisation or lambda expressions.

    While I agree with everything you said, I want to know what you think Flash's future is? This, I believe, is what the Apple press release was about. I think we can all agree that Flash has been useful.

  • User profile image
    Ian2

    bureX said:

    "New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."

    If Apple and Adobe were in good relations and this lead to Flash being ported and fully supported on the iPhone, Steve would have gone on about the brilliancy and the unprecedented potential of flash apps on the "worlds most advanced smartphone platform"... In short - I hate PR stunts, Steve is just talking out of his * again and has no real opinion of his own.

    Surely that should be Steve Jobs' Arse?

  • User profile image
    rhm

    JoshRoss said:

    I think the bigger issue is Section 3.3.1.  I can live without flash and yes *eek* silverlight. I think Steve is just beating a dead horse here.

     

    -Josh

    Yeh, as I've commented elsewhere, it's ironic that Jobs opens with a section on open standards when trying to defend a rule that forces native app developers to code to Apple's proprietary APIs.  It's a great example of doublethink.

     

    Also, I'm amazed how many people are buying this crap about quality and consistent UI experience - not just Apple shills like John Gruber, but most of the media are taking it at face value also. And yet it doesn't stand up to scrutiny from any angle:-

    • Qualtiy - example the app store and you can find lots of low-quality apps that would embarass any competent Flash developer.
    • Quality - if Apple decided to care about quality of native apps they already have the App Store approval process to deal with it.
    • Quality - the idea that making developers use worse tools will impove the quality of apps is laughable. Everyone has had approved apps crash on their iPhone and 99.9% of the time it was because of a memory leak or a memory access error. Forcing developers, usually ones with no experience in unmanaged languages,  to use C/C++/Objective-C is the cause of the problem, not a solution.
    • UI Consistency - has anyone ever played a game on the iPhone? Guess what - they're like games on every other platform, i.e. they don't use standard GUI look components. Never have and never will. If people were going to make non-game apps with Flash and use the Flex libraries to code the UI, that would be a problem, but again it could be dealt with in the App Store approval process easily enough.

     

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    rhm said:
    JoshRoss said:
    *snip*

    Yeh, as I've commented elsewhere, it's ironic that Jobs opens with a section on open standards when trying to defend a rule that forces native app developers to code to Apple's proprietary APIs.  It's a great example of doublethink.

     

    Also, I'm amazed how many people are buying this crap about quality and consistent UI experience - not just Apple shills like John Gruber, but most of the media are taking it at face value also. And yet it doesn't stand up to scrutiny from any angle:-

    • Qualtiy - example the app store and you can find lots of low-quality apps that would embarass any competent Flash developer.
    • Quality - if Apple decided to care about quality of native apps they already have the App Store approval process to deal with it.
    • Quality - the idea that making developers use worse tools will impove the quality of apps is laughable. Everyone has had approved apps crash on their iPhone and 99.9% of the time it was because of a memory leak or a memory access error. Forcing developers, usually ones with no experience in unmanaged languages,  to use C/C++/Objective-C is the cause of the problem, not a solution.
    • UI Consistency - has anyone ever played a game on the iPhone? Guess what - they're like games on every other platform, i.e. they don't use standard GUI look components. Never have and never will. If people were going to make non-game apps with Flash and use the Flex libraries to code the UI, that would be a problem, but again it could be dealt with in the App Store approval process easily enough.

     

    When Apple thumps their HIG on UI design and point their fingers at Flash, it's because of non-game applications that would use Flash to become crossplatform. Imagine if someone wrote a Flash-based office suite that worked on Android, WinMo, and iPhone: the consistency with the Cocoa Touch widget library would be lost, and Apple lose their platform's exclusivity.

     

    Remember, it's about two things: not just consistency, but ensuring lock-in to theit platform. UI consistency just happens to be an easy sell to make to the media.

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