Coffeehouse Thread

56 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

Courier Dead

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    cbae

    This thread sounds like it's coming from an Apple fanboi site. RLO claims to "prefer MS products and solution" yet wants to "hedge his bets" because MS supposedly cancels or delays projects all the time. Yet, in another post in the same thread he praises HP for cancelling the Slate running Windows 7 in favor of some speculative WebOS device? That's funny because, as far as we know beyond rumors, the Courier didn't get beyond the conceptual stage, whereas the HP Slate was sitting in Ballmer's grubby hands in a non-imagined embodiment at CES.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    For anybody thinking the iPad is going to be a "runaway success" long-term, I suggest that you go to a BestBuy and test-drive its onscreen keyboard. Think beyond the actual learning curve of being able to use the keyboard. Think in terms of the ergonomics. Hell, you don't even need to have the iPad in front of you to experience what it's like. You can do this on your own keyboard. Try typing anything longer than "LOL", "ROFL", or "pwn3d!" while hovering your hands over your keyboard making sure that absolutely none of your fingers are resting on the surface of any of the keys in the process. There are going to be plenty of apologists for the sheer crappiness of this experience, but deep down inside they're going want a physical keyboard.

  • User profile image
    RLO

    cbae said:

    This thread sounds like it's coming from an Apple fanboi site. RLO claims to "prefer MS products and solution" yet wants to "hedge his bets" because MS supposedly cancels or delays projects all the time. Yet, in another post in the same thread he praises HP for cancelling the Slate running Windows 7 in favor of some speculative WebOS device? That's funny because, as far as we know beyond rumors, the Courier didn't get beyond the conceptual stage, whereas the HP Slate was sitting in Ballmer's grubby hands in a non-imagined embodiment at CES.

    Cbae, if you want to debate the merits of the arguement, please feel free. As far as personal attacks, it's uncalled for in this forum.   I am a Microsoft consumer, user, and implementer.  I  am a system builder, a technician, and a student developer as well as the goto guy for tech planning in my prior career.  Prior to that I was a salesman for about 10 years in the retail sector.  I know a lot about marketing and a fair amount about tech.

     

    As far as prefering MS solutions and products let me roll out a few.

     

    I currently own a Zune 30, Zune 80, Zune 120, Zune 8, and a Zune HD. 

    I am currently an Xbox Live Subscriber since 2005.

    I have held a Zune Pass Subscription since December of 2006.

    I have been a Technet Subscriber since 2007.

    I have owned MS routers and network cards.

    I own 2 Xbox 360s and an original Xbox, not to mention countless accessories and games.

    I have owned 6 Window Mobile Phones.

    I own countless Microsoft Keyboards and Mice, including one Trackball.

    I currently run Windows Media Center for my DVR and use my Xboxes as Media Center Extenders.

    I own a Samsung Q1 UMPC running Origami.

    I own a Touchsmart PC in order to test touch and handwriting recognition in Windows 7.

    I own a Microsoft Webcam.

    I use Microsoft Office as my primary document/calculation/presentation needs.

     

    I have deployed Sharepoint Services for a College Campus, insisted and deployed Blackboard on MS Servers with SQL Server 2005 instead of a linux alternative, and have deployed Steady State on hundreds of computers, not to mention planning for deployments of new MS technologies as they are evaluated and become available.

     

    When I complain about Microsoft, I usually have a good reason and I tend to back it up.  My career depends on tech, and as such, I have to make decisions that will benefit me in the long run, not Microsoft.  Until now, I have been a loyal customer, but I also have to be realistic.  Realism dictates that companies rise and fall and only blind fanboys and fools won't admit it.  Like I said, I am hedging my bets.

     

     

  • User profile image
    cbae

    RLO said:
    cbae said:
    *snip*

    Cbae, if you want to debate the merits of the arguement, please feel free. As far as personal attacks, it's uncalled for in this forum.   I am a Microsoft consumer, user, and implementer.  I  am a system builder, a technician, and a student developer as well as the goto guy for tech planning in my prior career.  Prior to that I was a salesman for about 10 years in the retail sector.  I know a lot about marketing and a fair amount about tech.

     

    As far as prefering MS solutions and products let me roll out a few.

     

    I currently own a Zune 30, Zune 80, Zune 120, Zune 8, and a Zune HD. 

    I am currently an Xbox Live Subscriber since 2005.

    I have held a Zune Pass Subscription since December of 2006.

    I have been a Technet Subscriber since 2007.

    I have owned MS routers and network cards.

    I own 2 Xbox 360s and an original Xbox, not to mention countless accessories and games.

    I have owned 6 Window Mobile Phones.

    I own countless Microsoft Keyboards and Mice, including one Trackball.

    I currently run Windows Media Center for my DVR and use my Xboxes as Media Center Extenders.

    I own a Samsung Q1 UMPC running Origami.

    I own a Touchsmart PC in order to test touch and handwriting recognition in Windows 7.

    I own a Microsoft Webcam.

    I use Microsoft Office as my primary document/calculation/presentation needs.

     

    I have deployed Sharepoint Services for a College Campus, insisted and deployed Blackboard on MS Servers with SQL Server 2005 instead of a linux alternative, and have deployed Steady State on hundreds of computers, not to mention planning for deployments of new MS technologies as they are evaluated and become available.

     

    When I complain about Microsoft, I usually have a good reason and I tend to back it up.  My career depends on tech, and as such, I have to make decisions that will benefit me in the long run, not Microsoft.  Until now, I have been a loyal customer, but I also have to be realistic.  Realism dictates that companies rise and fall and only blind fanboys and fools won't admit it.  Like I said, I am hedging my bets.

     

     

    You're that entrenched in Microsoft technologies, and you're only now "hedging your bets" because some unannounced project that didn't get a stone's throw past Microsoft Research anyway is cancelled? Seriously? Are you really that mesmerized by the iPad to the point that if Microsoft doesn't have a competing product you'll feel left behind?

  • User profile image
    RLO

    cbae said:
    RLO said:
    *snip*

    You're that entrenched in Microsoft technologies, and you're only now "hedging your bets" because some unannounced project that didn't get a stone's throw past Microsoft Research anyway is cancelled? Seriously? Are you really that mesmerized by the iPad to the point that if Microsoft doesn't have a competing product you'll feel left behind?

    No, Cbae, I am not entrenched in anything.  At any point I can walk around my house and replace Windows with Ubuntu and open office and not flinch. I can call the satelite company and with a portable hard drive use their DVR solution.  I can easily fire up the Wii or PS3 and game.   I prefer MS technologies.  There's a difference. 

     

    As far as the iPad, I can tell that you are not familiar with how Education Tech works, so let me enlighten you.  Most tech choices tend to be driven after a flashy salesperson has roamed the halls and convinced some administrator that they need the "hot new thing" or a textbook salesman has come along with premade content that ties into the textbook that teachers must have.  So at that point it comes down to evaluators and implementers.  Sometimes you can delay choices being made usually by pointing that the tech is not ready or by pointing to another product and saying this is probably a better solution.  In the case of the iPad, because they have gotten the textbook companies to jump on board, they will be pushing their software solutions on the iPad as the "hot new thing" which brings it back to the evaluators and implementers.  Being able to point to a product like Courier and tell them that this is probably the better solution would hold off an iPad implementation, but in the end it will depend on the innovations on the device and how it can increase learning productivity.

    Ms could have had the textbook companies on board as well if they had kept up.  MS has had an ebook solution for several years now that they have let gather dust.  In fact they have not updated their catalog to reflect the University of Virginia's Electronic Text Center dropping .lit (MS Readers native format) support.  When the "hot new thing" in the consumer market is ebooks, MS was too early and not dedicated enough.

    In my field, I am going to have to deal with the iPad whether I want to or not.  I will have to evaluate it.  I'd rather have the pro's and cons of the device from first hand experience rather than rely upon others.  And if there is a push to deploy the device, I would much rather be familiar with it than to deploy it in ignorance. 

     I am not mesmerized by the product, and began hedging my bets last year after the reorg in the company before there was even a glimmer of the Courier or iPad.  Microsoft's actions since then have not increased my confidence in leadership as more and more consumer tech/software slips and educational products are cancelled or  reorg'd.  As the development base and educational innovation is pulled towards Apple products, I am going to have to shift as well.  As far as my comments on the HP Slate etc. , I still insist that the overall future of computing is the computing as an appliance paradigm and companies that get that and have an end to end solution will do well in the future.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    RLO said:
    cbae said:
    *snip*

    No, Cbae, I am not entrenched in anything.  At any point I can walk around my house and replace Windows with Ubuntu and open office and not flinch. I can call the satelite company and with a portable hard drive use their DVR solution.  I can easily fire up the Wii or PS3 and game.   I prefer MS technologies.  There's a difference. 

     

    As far as the iPad, I can tell that you are not familiar with how Education Tech works, so let me enlighten you.  Most tech choices tend to be driven after a flashy salesperson has roamed the halls and convinced some administrator that they need the "hot new thing" or a textbook salesman has come along with premade content that ties into the textbook that teachers must have.  So at that point it comes down to evaluators and implementers.  Sometimes you can delay choices being made usually by pointing that the tech is not ready or by pointing to another product and saying this is probably a better solution.  In the case of the iPad, because they have gotten the textbook companies to jump on board, they will be pushing their software solutions on the iPad as the "hot new thing" which brings it back to the evaluators and implementers.  Being able to point to a product like Courier and tell them that this is probably the better solution would hold off an iPad implementation, but in the end it will depend on the innovations on the device and how it can increase learning productivity.

    Ms could have had the textbook companies on board as well if they had kept up.  MS has had an ebook solution for several years now that they have let gather dust.  In fact they have not updated their catalog to reflect the University of Virginia's Electronic Text Center dropping .lit (MS Readers native format) support.  When the "hot new thing" in the consumer market is ebooks, MS was too early and not dedicated enough.

    In my field, I am going to have to deal with the iPad whether I want to or not.  I will have to evaluate it.  I'd rather have the pro's and cons of the device from first hand experience rather than rely upon others.  And if there is a push to deploy the device, I would much rather be familiar with it than to deploy it in ignorance. 

     I am not mesmerized by the product, and began hedging my bets last year after the reorg in the company before there was even a glimmer of the Courier or iPad.  Microsoft's actions since then have not increased my confidence in leadership as more and more consumer tech/software slips and educational products are cancelled or  reorg'd.  As the development base and educational innovation is pulled towards Apple products, I am going to have to shift as well.  As far as my comments on the HP Slate etc. , I still insist that the overall future of computing is the computing as an appliance paradigm and companies that get that and have an end to end solution will do well in the future.

    The problem with the iPad as an ebook solution is that it's all that it's really capable of. As a device for taking input, it's inferior to a notebook or even a netbook. What university's administration is going to saddle the entire school with a requirement to adopt technology that's flashy but doesn't replace a damn thing? If your target market is limited to those that only look at the "hot new thing" instead of looking at the long-term impact of such decisions, then these students protesting tuition hikes have a lot more reason to be protesting. Hopefully, the current protests will give these schools pause before they make a dumba$$ decision like selecting the iPad as a solution platform for anything related to academics.

  • User profile image
    RLO

    cbae said:
    RLO said:
    *snip*

    The problem with the iPad as an ebook solution is that it's all that it's really capable of. As a device for taking input, it's inferior to a notebook or even a netbook. What university's administration is going to saddle the entire school with a requirement to adopt technology that's flashy but doesn't replace a damn thing? If your target market is limited to those that only look at the "hot new thing" instead of looking at the long-term impact of such decisions, then these students protesting tuition hikes have a lot more reason to be protesting. Hopefully, the current protests will give these schools pause before they make a dumba$$ decision like selecting the iPad as a solution platform for anything related to academics.

    I agree with you, but understand what should be and what will be are two different things.  A University doesn't have to buy the devices in order for them to come into use.  Take Mizzou's example from their  Journalism School.  An iPhone/touch was required for the class.  If you have access to iTunes, fire it up and look at how many schools are using an Apple solution to deliver lectures by podcast.  It's not always about input and notes, but having these solutions + note taking is what made the Courier concept a compelling solution that could be pointed to.  For most non-tech people, these solutions are about making impact in the classroom and the evolution of online learning.  It's not about what works best technically, but what works best pedagogically.  That's why Harvard had the kindle study, and if you look at the feedback from that, you can see that students wanted the ability to take notes as well as have an all in one solution for textbooks.  As far as costs to the student, I assume you haven't bought supplies or textbooks lately.  I think this past year the bookstore was able to gouge me of about $600.00, and that's for basic classes.  If I was a med student, I could easily be paying $1000 plus in supplies.  When you look at it like that, add in the cost of an iPad over 4 years, then it starts making sense.  Besides, these students are already immersed in the iPod/iPhone culture, it's not a hard sell to them.

     

    Do I think that the iPad is the ultimate solution?  No.  The ultimate solution was terminated this past week.  That being said, the iPad is one of several solutions in place and should not be discounted especially when firmware updates can solve many of the complaints in the future.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    RLO said:
    cbae said:
    *snip*

    Cbae, if you want to debate the merits of the arguement, please feel free. As far as personal attacks, it's uncalled for in this forum.   I am a Microsoft consumer, user, and implementer.  I  am a system builder, a technician, and a student developer as well as the goto guy for tech planning in my prior career.  Prior to that I was a salesman for about 10 years in the retail sector.  I know a lot about marketing and a fair amount about tech.

     

    As far as prefering MS solutions and products let me roll out a few.

     

    I currently own a Zune 30, Zune 80, Zune 120, Zune 8, and a Zune HD. 

    I am currently an Xbox Live Subscriber since 2005.

    I have held a Zune Pass Subscription since December of 2006.

    I have been a Technet Subscriber since 2007.

    I have owned MS routers and network cards.

    I own 2 Xbox 360s and an original Xbox, not to mention countless accessories and games.

    I have owned 6 Window Mobile Phones.

    I own countless Microsoft Keyboards and Mice, including one Trackball.

    I currently run Windows Media Center for my DVR and use my Xboxes as Media Center Extenders.

    I own a Samsung Q1 UMPC running Origami.

    I own a Touchsmart PC in order to test touch and handwriting recognition in Windows 7.

    I own a Microsoft Webcam.

    I use Microsoft Office as my primary document/calculation/presentation needs.

     

    I have deployed Sharepoint Services for a College Campus, insisted and deployed Blackboard on MS Servers with SQL Server 2005 instead of a linux alternative, and have deployed Steady State on hundreds of computers, not to mention planning for deployments of new MS technologies as they are evaluated and become available.

     

    When I complain about Microsoft, I usually have a good reason and I tend to back it up.  My career depends on tech, and as such, I have to make decisions that will benefit me in the long run, not Microsoft.  Until now, I have been a loyal customer, but I also have to be realistic.  Realism dictates that companies rise and fall and only blind fanboys and fools won't admit it.  Like I said, I am hedging my bets.

     

     

    Fair comment.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    cbae said:

    For anybody thinking the iPad is going to be a "runaway success" long-term, I suggest that you go to a BestBuy and test-drive its onscreen keyboard. Think beyond the actual learning curve of being able to use the keyboard. Think in terms of the ergonomics. Hell, you don't even need to have the iPad in front of you to experience what it's like. You can do this on your own keyboard. Try typing anything longer than "LOL", "ROFL", or "pwn3d!" while hovering your hands over your keyboard making sure that absolutely none of your fingers are resting on the surface of any of the keys in the process. There are going to be plenty of apologists for the sheer crappiness of this experience, but deep down inside they're going want a physical keyboard.

    What you say about the keyboard is true. But what is also true is that they shifted about half a million in the first weekend of sales, which by any standard is a runaway success.

     

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    cbae said:

    This thread sounds like it's coming from an Apple fanboi site. RLO claims to "prefer MS products and solution" yet wants to "hedge his bets" because MS supposedly cancels or delays projects all the time. Yet, in another post in the same thread he praises HP for cancelling the Slate running Windows 7 in favor of some speculative WebOS device? That's funny because, as far as we know beyond rumors, the Courier didn't get beyond the conceptual stage, whereas the HP Slate was sitting in Ballmer's grubby hands in a non-imagined embodiment at CES.

    Well, HP's decision makes a lot of sense. They want a fast, light device that can run all day on a single charge and has a UI optimised for touch input. Even with the extra work HP put in, that wasn't Windows7

     

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    RLO said:

    Ray, the  Courier became real to me when the NYT reported on it. 

     

    That's really interesting. You see, if I'd seen that article a few weeks ago then I would have realised the Courier was about to be canned.

     

    RLO said:
    You may be right that Ballmer ran for the hills on this, but I would argue if you cripple yourself before you ever get out the door,  you will never beat anyone in any space (See Zune). 

     

    I see what you are saying, but you are assuming that MS is planning to beat anyone when all the indications are that the company is circling the wagons and setting itself up to protect the Windows/Office monopoly for as long as it can. They can keep churning them out and make lots of money doing it for years to come. They can also pick up a hell of a lot of pocket change by picking at the many small markets that Apple isn't interested in.

     

    RLO said:
    If he had actually looked at the influencers with the Courier, he would have seen that there was a larger market that did not want an iPad either.  I know I didn't get a market survey on Courier so without any communication on why this was scrapped, it's going to be hard to see it as anything other than Microsoft being an idiot.

     

    At the end of the day, this is Microsoft we are talking about.  Honestly, what do you think their chances of success would be? Here's a prediction for the Kin. It will go on sale, pick up a small handful of users and then will be quietly dropped in about two years time. MS will rewrite the software to run on whatever Apple is pushing at the time.

    These days, it takes more than good ideas to make a product successful. It requires focus, dedication and an almost superhuman level of strategic thinking. While MS has the talent for innovation, it doesn't have th stones to carry it through. The good thing is that the management is aware of its limitations and has adopted this 'hide in the corner' strategy to compensate for it.

    Normally, I would agree that this approach to running a business in an evironment like this is insane. But when we're talking about MS, remember they have a highly successful market and no real strategic nonce. They're kind of playing to their strengths and weaknesses at the same time.

     

    RLO said:
    I find it very funny that Apple is using Microsoft's strategy to slowly build itself bigger than MS.  Focusing on pulling one customer group to bring forward another.  MS at its height pulled the business, which in turn pulled the consumer, which in turn pulled the education market.  Apple focused on the consumer group (realizing this is where business leaders are), which in turn pulled the business side (iphone with exchange), and now is beginning to pull on the education side as well.  Microsoft pointed to the diversity of software as the strength of its platform, now Apple points to the diversity of its software as its platform strength.  I feel like I stepped into Bizarro world.

     

    And the execution is even better. I don't remember Microsoft being this popular while they were doing it ... :-/

     

    RLO said:
    I will agree with you that Apple's future will be iPhone OS.  It just makes too much sense. Keep your software market online and make sure that no viruses/malware can be installed by approving everything that is installed on the device.  All the while making a cut on the developer and buyer.  It's a monopoly, but how is this any different than video game consoles?

     

    It's fascinating to watch isn't it? In a few years Apple will probably release an ARM-based laptop with a fifteen hour battery life and shell so thin it's almost impossible to use, but does double as a handy throwing weapon.

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    Looking back at the Courier videos, I can totally understand why it got cancelled.  It's not consistent with MS strategy at all, it's not broad enough.  All the concept videos show scenarios that are tightly scoped to people who do design work.  And not to mention the hardware and software are totally infeasible today.  You're all devs, how would you cost implementing Courier software?  5 years? 10? 50?  It effectively requires the creation of magic and software that somehow anticipates your intent.

     

    That said, there are some cool, practical interface ideas shown that I hope we see in the near future.

  • User profile image
    contextfree

    Ray7 said:

    RLO said:
    *snip*

     

    It's fascinating to watch isn't it? In a few years Apple will probably release an ARM-based laptop with a fifteen hour battery life and shell so thin it's almost impossible to use, but does double as a handy throwing weapon.

    "At the end of the day, this is Microsoft we are talking about.  Honestly, what do you think their chances of success would be? Here's a prediction for the Kin. It will go on sale, pick up a small handful of users and then will be quietly dropped in about two years time."

     

    Kin is not being promoted as a platform for third-party development, so I'm sure that's what's intended from the start.  It's an experiment and the features that are deemed successful will be folded into Windows Phone, just like Zune's were.  Courier would have been the same way.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    CreamFilling512 said:
    Looking back at the Courier videos, I can totally understand why it got cancelled.  It's not consistent with MS strategy at all, it's not broad enough.

     

    If that were true, then Microsoft Surface would have never left the labs. If the market for the Courier is small, then I think you may find the market for a fifteen grand table is even smaller.

     

     

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    contextfree said:
    Ray7 said:
    *snip*

    "At the end of the day, this is Microsoft we are talking about.  Honestly, what do you think their chances of success would be? Here's a prediction for the Kin. It will go on sale, pick up a small handful of users and then will be quietly dropped in about two years time."

     

    Kin is not being promoted as a platform for third-party development, so I'm sure that's what's intended from the start.  It's an experiment and the features that are deemed successful will be folded into Windows Phone, just like Zune's were.  Courier would have been the same way.

    Kin is not really being promoted for anything which is why it's pretty much still-born.

     

    And your comment was pretty much the standard line MS has been using for all its failed projects. 

  • User profile image
    contextfree

    Ray7 said:
    contextfree said:
    *snip*

    Kin is not really being promoted for anything which is why it's pretty much still-born.

     

    And your comment was pretty much the standard line MS has been using for all its failed projects. 

    My point is that Kin has always been by design a narrowly focused product, so I don't see what the point you're making even is.  The question isn't whether Kin takes over the world, it's whether Windows Phone is ultimately successful.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    contextfree said:
    Ray7 said:
    *snip*

    My point is that Kin has always been by design a narrowly focused product, so I don't see what the point you're making even is.  The question isn't whether Kin takes over the world, it's whether Windows Phone is ultimately successful.

    The point is that rather than trying stuff that won't do very well, MS is better off sticking to what it knows (which is what it appears to be doing). 

     

    Windows Phone? Not so sure it will make much impact in the face of so much focussed competition. 

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    Ray7 said:

    CreamFilling512 said:
    *snip*

     

    If that were true, then Microsoft Surface would have never left the labs. If the market for the Courier is small, then I think you may find the market for a fifteen grand table is even smaller.

     

     

    No, Surface makes more sense, it's a platform, customers build the apps for it.

  • Conversation locked

    This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.