Coffeehouse Thread

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Clegg, Cameron or Brown?

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  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    It is most unusual for me to post non-tech posts, but I could not help it.

     

    Was it a mistake to have the televised debates, that have popularised the good looking polititan? I know women that vote for polititans they find attractive.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    A vote for Labour is a vote for Mandelson and the DE bill.

     

    I'm just peeved how the timescales for getting a postal vote abroad mean if you're outside Europe it's never going to happen.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    The Register wrote an article decrying the LibDems today and I can see the points they're making, so I'm kinda torn:

     

    • Labour: Ostensibly for the better of the population, and they have done a good job at bringing more people into the middle classes and generally governing as a whole (spare Iraq, of course, and their penchant for knee-jerk legislation and siding with popular Daily Fail sentiment to the detriment of things that matter)
    • LibDem: Despite easily getting more votes than Labour, it's a disgrace they would still have a small fraction of the seats in parliament. We need to abolish the FPP system, here's to hoping they well.
    • Tory: hahahahah

    Btw, here's a good video summing it up.

  • User profile image
    rhm

    blowdart said:

    A vote for Labour is a vote for Mandelson and the DE bill.

     

    I'm just peeved how the timescales for getting a postal vote abroad mean if you're outside Europe it's never going to happen.

    Labour: ID card bill, DE bill. Oh yeh, and two disasterous and pointless wars that no politician will end up paying for.

     

    Conservatives: Will finish off the selling up of Britain to the multinational megacorps by squeezing the BBC and abolishing Offcom so that News Corp can take over all media here. Cameron also has the nerve to ciritcise Brown for not regulating against a banking collapse that no government worldwide did anything about, while at the same time planning regulation cuts for his old school friends.

     

    If Labour win it'll be depressing, if the Conservatives win it'll be a disaster. And the Lib Dems can't win. The best outcome is no overall majority, but not only is that very unlikely (despite how reporters like to go on about it), but it wouldn't necessarilly lead to power-sharing and electoral reform.

     

    Added to that my vote is worth 0.1 of my fair share due to living in a safe Labour constituency according to voterpower.org.uk so I'm a bit bummed out about this election.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    Do we want to know which one you are calling the good looking one?

  • User profile image
    ManipUni

    Neither Labour nor the Conservatives deserve my vote. Labour pushed through the DE bill in what I consider an illegal way, and the Conservatives including my own area's MP didn't turn up to oppose it in any way even after I sent him a letter - spelling out the good and bad parts of the bill, and suggested it needed further debate.

     

    I will vote Clegg. I voted Lib Dem's last time. I would vote Pirate but there isn't one locally. The only "scary" policy the Lib Dem's have is that they want to join the Euro... They did oppose the DE bill and even had a few votes against it - which gets them an automatic vote.

     

    If you are talking about the Register's article in which they cried about our Nuclear weapons then frankly I don't even know how to respond to that moronic partisan trash. Yes, we would not have Nuclear weapons when we retired our existing stock, so what? Perhaps the EU should move forward as a group of countries and do it on the cheap anyway.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    dahat said:

    Do we want to know which one you are calling the good looking one?

    Not me personally [i hasten to add] but Nick has been a bit of a hit ( also reputed to have had 30 lovers), mind you David hasn't done to badly either and his missus isn't what you'd call an eyesore.

     

    There is always an element of presentation and presentability that people go for usually, but the big change is that people have been able to see them having live TV debates like you guys, and badly dressed, demure, conviction polititians haven't been doing too well (so they say). Tony Blair was always engaging, especially when he was telling porkies, then he was in his element, he was suave and effortless.

     

    I'm personally at a difficult age. The older I get, the more conservative I become, which hasn't always been the case. Gordon has made a few unforgivable mistakes, the liberals have a reputation for being prostitutes, though they are very progressive at the moment, which leaves the Tories.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    vesuvius said:
    dahat said:
    *snip*

    Not me personally [i hasten to add] but Nick has been a bit of a hit ( also reputed to have had 30 lovers), mind you David hasn't done to badly either and his missus isn't what you'd call an eyesore.

     

    There is always an element of presentation and presentability that people go for usually, but the big change is that people have been able to see them having live TV debates like you guys, and badly dressed, demure, conviction polititians haven't been doing too well (so they say). Tony Blair was always engaging, especially when he was telling porkies, then he was in his element, he was suave and effortless.

     

    I'm personally at a difficult age. The older I get, the more conservative I become, which hasn't always been the case. Gordon has made a few unforgivable mistakes, the liberals have a reputation for being prostitutes, though they are very progressive at the moment, which leaves the Tories.

    Give me a lil credit, just because I'm an American doesn't mean I don't keep up with some of the politics over there Tongue Out ... hell, I even watched (most) of the final two debates when they aired in place of my fav late night comedy/news program.

     

    God I wish our presidential debates could be as lively.

     

    Fully understandable your movement, what's the old line? "If you aren’t a liberal at 20 you don’t have a heart, and if you aren't a conservative at 40 you don’t have a brain?"

     

    Related to that, I read an interesting blog post (from a dating site of all places) that studied shifting social & economic views over time with regards to age which supports the old line and what is happening to you.

     

    "which leaves the Tories"... you could always throw your vote away and vote for the BNP... but then I suspect that would require a long shower afterwards.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    dahat said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    Give me a lil credit, just because I'm an American doesn't mean I don't keep up with some of the politics over there Tongue Out ... hell, I even watched (most) of the final two debates when they aired in place of my fav late night comedy/news program.

     

    God I wish our presidential debates could be as lively.

     

    Fully understandable your movement, what's the old line? "If you aren’t a liberal at 20 you don’t have a heart, and if you aren't a conservative at 40 you don’t have a brain?"

     

    Related to that, I read an interesting blog post (from a dating site of all places) that studied shifting social & economic views over time with regards to age which supports the old line and what is happening to you.

     

    "which leaves the Tories"... you could always throw your vote away and vote for the BNP... but then I suspect that would require a long shower afterwards.

    It's funny how the Welsh National Party (Plaid Cymru) and the Scottish National Party are both pretty level-headed, yet the British National Party leave a lot to be desired.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    W3bbo said:
    dahat said:
    *snip*

    It's funny how the Welsh National Party (Plaid Cymru) and the Scottish National Party are both pretty level-headed, yet the British National Party leave a lot to be desired.

    Especially their webmasters.

  • User profile image
    davewill

    Televised debates are a good thing in my opinion.  It is hard listening to a politician lie with only audio input.  By having visual cues it is possible to pick up on when they know they lie versus when they are just ignorant/mis-informed.

  • User profile image
    CSMR

    The debate in the UK is pretty inane compared to the US for example; the parties are full of all sorts of populist nonsense and don't state their agendas, and the press doesn't tell us either.

    But the Tories will cut tax and spending compared to the others (i.e. more spending cuts, lower tax increases), it's in their blood, and that's key for a country that has been increasingly dominated by the state and burdened by state spending and tax. There'll be a bit less government control, a bit more freedom.

    Also will draw back bureaucracy and the nanny state, and will be less tied up with the ridiculous bureaucratic cartel that is the EU.

  • User profile image
    CSMR

    rhm said:
    blowdart said:
    *snip*

    Labour: ID card bill, DE bill. Oh yeh, and two disasterous and pointless wars that no politician will end up paying for.

     

    Conservatives: Will finish off the selling up of Britain to the multinational megacorps by squeezing the BBC and abolishing Offcom so that News Corp can take over all media here. Cameron also has the nerve to ciritcise Brown for not regulating against a banking collapse that no government worldwide did anything about, while at the same time planning regulation cuts for his old school friends.

     

    If Labour win it'll be depressing, if the Conservatives win it'll be a disaster. And the Lib Dems can't win. The best outcome is no overall majority, but not only is that very unlikely (despite how reporters like to go on about it), but it wouldn't necessarilly lead to power-sharing and electoral reform.

     

    Added to that my vote is worth 0.1 of my fair share due to living in a safe Labour constituency according to voterpower.org.uk so I'm a bit bummed out about this election.

    Certainly in economic terms, a hung parliament is a very bad result. Whenever you hear analysis of the financial markets, that's what you'll hear.

  • User profile image
    rhm

    CSMR said:
    rhm said:
    *snip*

    Certainly in economic terms, a hung parliament is a very bad result. Whenever you hear analysis of the financial markets, that's what you'll hear.

    You hear a lot of scaremongering from people and organisations with vested interests, that's for sure.

     

    As for your analysis of what the Conservatives would do - very much like the Republicants in the USA, whenever they talk about 'freedom', you have a mentally suffix it "[freedom] for corporations to own and control".

  • User profile image
    dahat

    rhm said:
    CSMR said:
    *snip*

    You hear a lot of scaremongering from people and organisations with vested interests, that's for sure.

     

    As for your analysis of what the Conservatives would do - very much like the Republicants in the USA, whenever they talk about 'freedom', you have a mentally suffix it "[freedom] for corporations to own and control".

    While perhaps limitiedly true... you'd be better off taking their use of the word and judging it against some words from Abraham Lincoln:

    We all declare for liberty;

        but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing.

    With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself,

        and the product of his labor;

        while with others, the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men,

        and the product of other men's labor.

    Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things,

        called by the same name--liberty.

    And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties,

        called by two different and incompatible names -- liberty and tyranny.

  • User profile image
    CSMR

    rhm said:
    CSMR said:
    *snip*

    You hear a lot of scaremongering from people and organisations with vested interests, that's for sure.

     

    As for your analysis of what the Conservatives would do - very much like the Republicants in the USA, whenever they talk about 'freedom', you have a mentally suffix it "[freedom] for corporations to own and control".

    No, I'm talking about analysis by people both inside the financial markets and commenting on it. And not just that but actual movements of stocks. Markets fall on the threat of a hung parliament often even compared to government by either side. People with vested interests in making money don't sell out to lower stock prices just to scare people.

     

    Actually moderate Democrats also believe in this sort of freedom. Compared to the UK, there is much more state control in the UK, about the same corporate power (the economy is stronger, so there is more corporate money, but there is also strong antitrust policy*) and much less individual freedom. I live between both countries and in the USA corporations don't control me, they compete for my custom. OTOH in the UK the government both takes more of my earnings involuntarily but also tries to regulate many more things.

     

    (*not including healthcare; there competition policy is very weak)

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    rhm said:
    CSMR said:
    *snip*

    You hear a lot of scaremongering from people and organisations with vested interests, that's for sure.

     

    As for your analysis of what the Conservatives would do - very much like the Republicants in the USA, whenever they talk about 'freedom', you have a mentally suffix it "[freedom] for corporations to own and control".

    Which is different from Labours constant PFI con to keep costs off the books and to transfer ownership of schools, hospitals, railways, roads etc to the private sector?

     

  • User profile image
    CSMR

    blowdart said:
    rhm said:
    *snip*

    Which is different from Labours constant PFI con to keep costs off the books and to transfer ownership of schools, hospitals, railways, roads etc to the private sector?

     

    There are private elements to increase efficiency, but the whole sceme is still the same (governement provides services without payment by individuals, funded by tax. (In the case of schools and hospitals.) The costs should still be on the books.

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