Coffeehouse Thread

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MetroTwit beta is up

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  • Sven Groot

    littleguru said:

    The text is exactly as blurry as the VS 2010 beta code editor was. I can't read it without getting a headache... Sad

    The fix is really simple. All they need to do is add TextOptions.TextFormattingMode="Display" to every window, and preferably also change the font back to Segoe UI.

  • exoteric

    A nice client. Two issues though: 1) it seems to have some synchronicity problems from time to time (not enough asynchronous processing, or is my machine just too slow?), 2) it looks like it's designed for full screen but I want my twitter stream to be in an Avalon-like side-panel. Aero-Snap'ing it to the side of the screen will not do the trick because that still uses up half the screen real-estate and it wohn't gracefully reconfigure itself to a snapped configuration (slim, one column). Actually the best integration is probably like "hot air" where the news start at the bottom right side of the screen and then float upwards whilst becomming increasingly transparent (they only float upwards if new tweets arrive before they've disappeared entirely).

     

    Anyway, that's just my point of view. It's clear that you've made a nice client that looks just as nice as, if not nicer than, other twitter clients.

     

    Actually, it looks as if you'll have taken care of my main concern if you just hide the client from the taskbar when minimized.

  • longzheng

    Sven Groot said:
    littleguru said:
    *snip*

    The fix is really simple. All they need to do is add TextOptions.TextFormattingMode="Display" to every window, and preferably also change the font back to Segoe UI.

    Just wanted to follow up on the fonts stuff.

     

    In terms of the "fuzzy" text problem, this is actually subject to personal preference and the technical specifications of your monitor. Many people (myself included) actually don't have any problems with the "current" font rendering. I can agree it's sort of blurry, but it's readable (better than earlier WPF font rendering) and I actually enjoy the smoother aesthetics. At the same time, I can see why some people can find a problem with it.

     

    In terms of a "solution", it's actually not that straight forward. Scott Hanselman and Pete Brown reached out to me to work on this issue specifically. TextFormattingMode and TextRenderingMode were one of the first things I tried and it really didn't have any positive effect. To cut a long story short, it actually turns out enabling transparency on the application disables ClearType font rendering application-wide.

     

    We required transparency because of the custom chrome drop shadow we've implemented so currently we need to solve that issue to solve this fonts issue.

     

    Rest assured though, we're looking into this and will seek a solution to satisfy everyone.

  • mdtauk

    longzheng said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    Just wanted to follow up on the fonts stuff.

     

    In terms of the "fuzzy" text problem, this is actually subject to personal preference and the technical specifications of your monitor. Many people (myself included) actually don't have any problems with the "current" font rendering. I can agree it's sort of blurry, but it's readable (better than earlier WPF font rendering) and I actually enjoy the smoother aesthetics. At the same time, I can see why some people can find a problem with it.

     

    In terms of a "solution", it's actually not that straight forward. Scott Hanselman and Pete Brown reached out to me to work on this issue specifically. TextFormattingMode and TextRenderingMode were one of the first things I tried and it really didn't have any positive effect. To cut a long story short, it actually turns out enabling transparency on the application disables ClearType font rendering application-wide.

     

    We required transparency because of the custom chrome drop shadow we've implemented so currently we need to solve that issue to solve this fonts issue.

     

    Rest assured though, we're looking into this and will seek a solution to satisfy everyone.

    Wild idea, and it sounds impossible to me even typing it, but I shall...

     

    What about having two windows/forms open, one transparent for the drop shadow, the other opaque, and tie the position of the two windows/forms to each other, so you get the same kind of effect?

     

    I'll go and hide now...

  • Ion Todirel

    longzheng said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    Just wanted to follow up on the fonts stuff.

     

    In terms of the "fuzzy" text problem, this is actually subject to personal preference and the technical specifications of your monitor. Many people (myself included) actually don't have any problems with the "current" font rendering. I can agree it's sort of blurry, but it's readable (better than earlier WPF font rendering) and I actually enjoy the smoother aesthetics. At the same time, I can see why some people can find a problem with it.

     

    In terms of a "solution", it's actually not that straight forward. Scott Hanselman and Pete Brown reached out to me to work on this issue specifically. TextFormattingMode and TextRenderingMode were one of the first things I tried and it really didn't have any positive effect. To cut a long story short, it actually turns out enabling transparency on the application disables ClearType font rendering application-wide.

     

    We required transparency because of the custom chrome drop shadow we've implemented so currently we need to solve that issue to solve this fonts issue.

     

    Rest assured though, we're looking into this and will seek a solution to satisfy everyone.

    Actually it looks blurry on 7 different computer displays, ranging from 4 laptops to 2 hi-end IPS panels, so I don't buy that argument, it's blurry, period Smiley

  • Sven Groot

    mdtauk said:
    longzheng said:
    *snip*

    Wild idea, and it sounds impossible to me even typing it, but I shall...

     

    What about having two windows/forms open, one transparent for the drop shadow, the other opaque, and tie the position of the two windows/forms to each other, so you get the same kind of effect?

     

    I'll go and hide now...

    Even wilder idea: use the system chrome.

     

    I don't like any application that doesn't use the system chrome. This includes e.g. WLM and older versions of WMP (where I always turn the chrome on first thing). I also greatly dislike that all of the Silverlight 4 OOB apps I've seen so far use a custom chrome (I'm not sure if they can have the default chrome or not).

     

    If I used Twitter (which I don't), I would likely not use this app because of its use of a custom window chrome.

  • kettch

    Sven Groot said:
    mdtauk said:
    *snip*

    Even wilder idea: use the system chrome.

     

    I don't like any application that doesn't use the system chrome. This includes e.g. WLM and older versions of WMP (where I always turn the chrome on first thing). I also greatly dislike that all of the Silverlight 4 OOB apps I've seen so far use a custom chrome (I'm not sure if they can have the default chrome or not).

     

    If I used Twitter (which I don't), I would likely not use this app because of its use of a custom window chrome.

    QFT

     

    For me, it's much more than the aesthetic, an application's window must work the same as the host OS. This includes windowing controls, context menus, and things like Aero Snap. Photoshop is a big violator for breaking Snap. Chrome (the browser) is out because I hate not having (window) chrome to grab on to. Zune gets partial points for obeying snap, but instead of allowing the OS to show the transparent preview of a Snap operation, it immediately reflows the application. I'd rather have the consistency.

  • vesuvius

    kettch said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    QFT

     

    For me, it's much more than the aesthetic, an application's window must work the same as the host OS. This includes windowing controls, context menus, and things like Aero Snap. Photoshop is a big violator for breaking Snap. Chrome (the browser) is out because I hate not having (window) chrome to grab on to. Zune gets partial points for obeying snap, but instead of allowing the OS to show the transparent preview of a Snap operation, it immediately reflows the application. I'd rather have the consistency.

    I like the Chrome, and think Expression Blend lead the way, even though there is no placating you, hence, I know not why I bothered to post.

     

    It is differentiated UI, casting away "prior art" and giving designers complete control.

     

     

  • Ion Todirel

    Sven Groot said:
    mdtauk said:
    *snip*

    Even wilder idea: use the system chrome.

     

    I don't like any application that doesn't use the system chrome. This includes e.g. WLM and older versions of WMP (where I always turn the chrome on first thing). I also greatly dislike that all of the Silverlight 4 OOB apps I've seen so far use a custom chrome (I'm not sure if they can have the default chrome or not).

     

    If I used Twitter (which I don't), I would likely not use this app because of its use of a custom window chrome.

    I don't mind a custom window chrome, as long as everything is consistent, and custom Smiley

  • Sven Groot

    Ion Todirel said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    I don't mind a custom window chrome, as long as everything is consistent, and custom Smiley

    For me it's also more about consistency rather than aesthetics per se. It's just inviting trouble, because you have to replicate functionality that everyone is used to, and do it in such a way that you're consistent with current and future versions of Windows.

     

    This case is a perfect example. If you have no window border, you don't have a drop shadow. If you try to create one, you apparently mess up ClearType in WPF. All problems that wouldn't even have occurred if you just stuck to the regular window chrome. Oh, and I mentioned consistency with future versions: what if those use a different drop shadow or none at all; this app will look weird then. Does MetroTwit try to draw a drop shadow in XP, or the basic or classic theme, or other situations where windows wouldn't normally have a drop shadow?

     

    And what if I disabled the window shadows in the performance settings (maybe because my graphics card is too slow for them)? Does MetroTwit obey that setting?

     

    These are all silly little things that will annoy your users and that you don't need to worry about if you just use a standard window border.

  • longzheng

    Sven Groot said:
    Ion Todirel said:
    *snip*

    For me it's also more about consistency rather than aesthetics per se. It's just inviting trouble, because you have to replicate functionality that everyone is used to, and do it in such a way that you're consistent with current and future versions of Windows.

     

    This case is a perfect example. If you have no window border, you don't have a drop shadow. If you try to create one, you apparently mess up ClearType in WPF. All problems that wouldn't even have occurred if you just stuck to the regular window chrome. Oh, and I mentioned consistency with future versions: what if those use a different drop shadow or none at all; this app will look weird then. Does MetroTwit try to draw a drop shadow in XP, or the basic or classic theme, or other situations where windows wouldn't normally have a drop shadow?

     

    And what if I disabled the window shadows in the performance settings (maybe because my graphics card is too slow for them)? Does MetroTwit obey that setting?

     

    These are all silly little things that will annoy your users and that you don't need to worry about if you just use a standard window border.

    No I agree with you about the chrome, we really didn't want to get "rid" of it and do our own, but in reality, the glass frame really doesn't not fit with the Metro look and feel.

  • intelman

    Ion Todirel said:
    longzheng said:
    *snip*

    Actually it looks blurry on 7 different computer displays, ranging from 4 laptops to 2 hi-end IPS panels, so I don't buy that argument, it's blurry, period Smiley

    It looks perfect on my IPS panel, on some generic Dell 24 inch panel at school, and great on my old Dell Laptop, but horrible on my tablet

    I really love the look of the text on the panels where the text looks good. I prefer it to anyting else I've seen on Windows.

     

    Pehaps it is heavily DPI dependent.

     

    Text remains a pretty big issue on Windows. There are so many font renderings, none are consistant. Cleartype needs an overhaul. Or directwrite needs to be forced. Something needs to happen.

  • sushovande

    intelman said:
    Ion Todirel said:
    *snip*

    It looks perfect on my IPS panel, on some generic Dell 24 inch panel at school, and great on my old Dell Laptop, but horrible on my tablet

    I really love the look of the text on the panels where the text looks good. I prefer it to anyting else I've seen on Windows.

     

    Pehaps it is heavily DPI dependent.

     

    Text remains a pretty big issue on Windows. There are so many font renderings, none are consistant. Cleartype needs an overhaul. Or directwrite needs to be forced. Something needs to happen.

    Something needs to happen

    I wish we could all get 320ppi displays and forget about ClearType.

    /no, really.

  • longzheng

    Sven Groot said:
    Ion Todirel said:
    *snip*

    For me it's also more about consistency rather than aesthetics per se. It's just inviting trouble, because you have to replicate functionality that everyone is used to, and do it in such a way that you're consistent with current and future versions of Windows.

     

    This case is a perfect example. If you have no window border, you don't have a drop shadow. If you try to create one, you apparently mess up ClearType in WPF. All problems that wouldn't even have occurred if you just stuck to the regular window chrome. Oh, and I mentioned consistency with future versions: what if those use a different drop shadow or none at all; this app will look weird then. Does MetroTwit try to draw a drop shadow in XP, or the basic or classic theme, or other situations where windows wouldn't normally have a drop shadow?

     

    And what if I disabled the window shadows in the performance settings (maybe because my graphics card is too slow for them)? Does MetroTwit obey that setting?

     

    These are all silly little things that will annoy your users and that you don't need to worry about if you just use a standard window border.

    In case anyone was wondering, we fixed both custom chrome issues and ClearType in our latest release Smiley

  • PaoloM

    longzheng said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    In case anyone was wondering, we fixed both custom chrome issues and ClearType in our latest release Smiley

    But still the rendering is not as good as it could be. Could you drop Zegoe (that's not properly hinted at 96dpi) and use Segoe UI?

  • figuerres

    longzheng said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    In case anyone was wondering, we fixed both custom chrome issues and ClearType in our latest release Smiley

    Cool Long, will have to update and see how it looks.... nice app and i think if the rendering is fixed it will be great!

     

  • longzheng

    PaoloM said:
    longzheng said:
    *snip*

    But still the rendering is not as good as it could be. Could you drop Zegoe (that's not properly hinted at 96dpi) and use Segoe UI?

    We already do use Segoe UI for the tweets Smiley

  • blowdart

    Now if only there was proper retweeting (what is this, 2009?) picture service support, and url shortening and working favouriting and I would switch off Seesmic. The fonts do look better now.

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